Coast Guard seeks opinion on scrapping LORAN system

[hellosailor]

Ian-
The 60's was the same time period, you may be remembering the same daisy cutters. When airdropped by parachute from a transport (one per load) and set off as an airburst, the concussion way alone is strong enough to kill anyone on foot who can see it coming down. If set off on the ground, it might well be enough to do some fast construction work. Not what they were designed for...but if you don't have a bulldozer around, it probably would work. I'd be surprised if there was no crater to fill in though.

Hey, let's ask for a government grant to test that theory.

[ianhlnd]

Probably the same thing, doing double duty. Dropped from a C130, the idea was that it cracked open spreading the CNG or propane or whatever, probably a heavy gas to stay close to the ground, then ignited, made a very distinctive VAaaaaVooossshhhh sound, clearing about 4 acres, no crater.

If some guys can get a grant at $50 a square foot to replant eel grass here at the islands, maybe we could get a grant to test this thing on LORANs

[soul searcher]

or It could be updated. http://navcen.uscg.gov/eLORAN/overview.htm
see critical timing for telecomunications and internet loran is used for more than just air and sea nav

[Idiens]

[quote=seabreeze_97]I keep seeing statements that it's cheaper to launch satellites than build land-based stations, but never see any references or links to such a cost analysis. Also, how long do the sats last, and how long have the land-based stations been in operation? Typical satellites last about 7-10 years. Ground stations last for decades, and don't require multi-million dollar space shots to upgrade or repair. Did anyone read the linked article on uses for Loran to deliver differential correction for GPS, which the euros have been doing for several years now?

Having GPS is a great by-product of a military investment, but there are no guarantees.

"The initial cost to deploy the NavStar GPS system was 10.5 billion dollars. Annual cost to keep the GPS system running is 400 million dollars. Cost for WAAS is 1 billion, while the cost for LAAS is 300 million.
The cost to operate the LORAN system annually is 28 million dollars. The Coast Guard is planning to invest 109 million dollars in February 2002 which will allow the system to operate through 2008."
[/quote]

Current GPS satellites are lasting up to 15 years. GPS is global, work out how many LORAN stations you would need to get global coverage and then try to get the same accuracy. There is one LORAN tower in Europe experimentally modified to transmit improved LORAN signals, it is not operational and you cannot buy a receiver that can use the signals – its experimental. There are already coast guard differential systems and augmentation systems like WAAS, if basic GPS is not good enough.

Successive US presidents have guaranteed GPS continuation to both IMO and ICAO, opening the path for them to formally adopt GPS use.

GPS paid for its development cost in taxes on export receiver sales in its first couple of years of public use. It’s actually a great US export success story that is still generating new jobs around the world.

[midlifesailor]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Seabreeze...last time i checked radio and tv were commercial enterprises and stations either make $$ or shut down. Nothing run by the government ever shuts down! Exactly how is Loran a backup system when 99% of vessels have no working loran. There's probably more boats out there with sextants!

Snailboaters aren't the only users of Loran. I'm a contractor with the FAA and know that the enhanced Loran system is considered the most likely candidate to serve as a navigation back up should there be a loss of GPS signal. GPS signals are easily jammed and China has taken a big step towards the militarization of space, successfully demonstrating a anti-satellite missle. The more reliant our economy becomes on satellite navigation, the bigger target the system becomes. Since DOD/DHS/DOT/NASA/Etc all support moving away from our reliance on 1940's radar technology for our air traffic control system to a GPS/Datalink surveillence system, they are looking for a cost effective back up nav source should someone exploit GPS's weaknesses.

Loran signals are harder to jam and ground based stations in the US would be less succeptable to attack. Also the system is very cheap compared to Radar. Both the GPS and Loran systems only work with cooperating targets (ie the target has to be equipped), so there will always be some radar coverage funded by DOD. Still the E-Loran technology offers a great back up to the Next Generation Air Transportation systems ADS-B surveillence concept. My guess is the system will not be scrapped, but the funding may shift from DHS/CG to DOT/FAA.

When the government gets around to finally making these decsions, we boaters might see benefits in the form of cool new dual source Loran/GPS nav systems for boaters.

[bestfriend]

I have Loran, although I haven't figured it all out yet. I am not going to invest big bucks for a gps chartplotter on a 16 year old boat that I will probably sell in 5-10 years. I prefer to learn how to navigate instead of relying on gps. I will, however, buy a handheld gps for backup, and I can take it with me.

[camaraderie]

Midlife... When China shoots down the GPS satellites, your Loran won't work either...due to the electromagnetic pulse of global nuclear war!
To my mind this remains just another government boondoggle looking for any excuse to survive despite not being in the best interest of 99% of the citizens and unecessary for national defense.

Bestfriend...what do you call "big bucks"? You know that you can buy a Garmin handheld with the plotter maps AND take it with you to the next boat? $327 on Amazon.

[bestfriend]

Yes, thats the one I consider worth it. I can take it with me and its a good back up if I ever buy one of those "desktop computers" for my pedestal. Not that they are bad, I just can't afford several grand right now. And i would want on that did it all, if I invested.

[midlifesailor]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

To my mind this remains just another government boondoggle looking for any excuse to survive despite not being in the best interest of 99% of the citizens and unecessary for national defense.

The Loran system will not be retained (or deactiaved) because of the needs of boaters. The decsion will be based on the 99% of the population that fly or depend on air cargo.

It would not take WWIII to cause a loss of GPS signal. The area I am in has frequent notices of GPS disruptions based on activities on military installations in the area. If we can jam it, so can folks that won't tell us about it first.

[garyp]

Occasional gps interruptions here on the Carolina coast too. Probably related to the two big Marine installations. "The prudent navigator doesn't rely on just one source of navigational information." (I know that's not an exact quote.)