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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
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  #21  
Old 02-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaunclm
The death rate for offshore sailing in cats and tris is dramatically higher than in ballasted monohulls.
Golly & Gosh - surely you should know by quoting a statement like this you would need to back it up with some sort of reference that is not simply anecdotal??



Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente
Very broadly speaking, I think the only catamarans designed from day one for oceanic conditions (which means in catamaran terms no patio-style sliding doors and a very different approach to the bridgedeck undersides) are designed in South Africa.

Maybe it's because they have to consider 8,000 mile deliveries right after launch that makes them a little safer?
No Valiente, it is because we are surrounded, by some of the roughest and meanest sea-conditions on any given day, in any area around our coastline. These cats are built with that in mind...
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
No Valiente, it is because we are surrounded, by some of the roughest and meanest sea-conditions on any given day, in any area around our coastline. These cats are built with that in mind...
That was my implication, actually. For the record, I have never sailed or even stepped aboard a cat, but PDQ (a generally acknowledged "good" cat builder) is down the road from Toronto, and there's quite a few of them in particular seen on Lake Ontario, so I've looked them over from the middle distance. So all I'm saying is that to my unpractised eye is that there is a qualitative design difference between S.A. cats and most others I've seen.

They are lower and have less portlight area in the coach house, for one.

They also seem a tad longer and narrower for another. I can only attribute this to the sort of trial and error available to peoole who round the Cape of Faint Hope into adverse currents and heavy winds on a regular basis: the design of cats in S.A. must be a particularly Darwin-driven affair.
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaunclm
You made exactly my point that sailing a multihull is like flying a small racing plane.

Let me add one more consideration taking a multihull into cold water without a liferaft is suicidal. The thought that hanging on to an inverted hull is in any way related to the safety of a liferaft is ludicrous.

Sailing multihulls of any stripe is an order of magnitude more dangerous per mile sailed than a monohull.

If there were anywhere near as many multihulls as keel sailboats there would be worldwide cry to ban the things.
Obviously reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said that a racing multihull, which is often sailed close to the limits of their performance envelope is like flying a small racing plane. A racing multihull is nowhere near as safe as a cruising multihull. Generally, the large cruising multihulls have far more surplus buoyancy in their hulls than does a racing design, and generally have a much more conservative sailplan as well. I still have yet to see you quote any articles or reference materials to back up your claims.

Your ignorance of modern multihull design and sailing is appalling. If multihulls were so deficient in design, why would many of the records we have seen set recently have been accomplished in such unseaworthy vessels. To name two recent records set by multihulls—Ellen McArthur's world record single-handed circumnavigation, and the recent transAtlantic speed record set by Bruno Peyron.

Chris White, the author of "The Cruising Multihull", cites several USCG statistics, and the larger cruising multihulls were considerably safer than either smaller (<35') multihulls or monohull sailboats. Given that one of the most common causes of sailboat fatalities are MOB situations... it would stand to reason that it is going to be far safer to be on a much wider boat that heels less, 15˚ generally for a trimaran, and 10˚ for a catamaran, and that you're far more likely to fall overboard on a relatively narrower boat 10' beam for a 30' keelboat vs 14-18' beam for a 30' multihull, which is heeled over at 30˚ much of the time. However, these statistics are at least 10 years old...and, if anything, the designs of multihulls has improved during those 10 years.

Granted, larger boats are generally a bit safer than smaller boats...being less prone to capsize. However, the safety record of even smaller multihulls, is comparable to that of larger monohulls. This is especially true if you eliminate the "racing" multihulls from the statistics, and only include the more stable, cruising designs.

One reason that the statistics are a bit skewed is that keelboats have a position of ultimate stability— upright, sitting on the bottom of the ocean. There are many cases where monohull sailboats are reported missing but no one really knows what happened to the people aboard... and because there is no way to find out more information, the story quickly fades into the background... look at the Jim Gray story... which has just faded out... Another good story to point out is the loss of the crew of the Moquini. The keel-less hull of Moquini was found after the EPIRB for the boat was set off, but there is no sign of the crew and they are missing and presumed dead. I'd imagine that for every sailboat that is reported missing in the news, there are others that are not—boats that set sail and simply disappeared without any trace. It is often a far more dramatic story when a multihull is capsized, because there are survivors and they can tell the story.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Last edited by sailingdog; 02-26-2007 at 11:46 AM.
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2007
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SD...on the other hand....I have never seen a monohull flying like a kite at anchor...saw two 40+ foot cats do that in Ivan. Both ended up in their position of ultimate stability too!! Can you cite the coast guard statistics Chris White reports so we can all have a look at them?
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  #25  
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Cam-

I'd be happy to next time I'm down at the marina... since my copy of the book is sitting on my boat.

While I haven't seen a big cat act as a kite, I can believe it...as the windage some of the bigger cats have is incredible. However, their behavior at anchor in a hurricane is not what is currently under discussion. It is their ability to make bluewater passages safely, and whether they are inherently more or less dangerous than monohulls on such a passage. Let's face it... poor planning, and sailing in the wrong waters at the wrong time is going to get you killled pretty much regardless of what kind of boat your on. The two catamaran incidents of recent mention, the one in this thread and the poor bastards off the coast of Oregon, both were sailing in conditions that very few boats, be they monohulls or multihulls, would have survived.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #26  
Old 02-26-2007
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camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
SD...yep...I know...just pointing out a little known attribute that was fascinating if painful to watch! Like I said...theyre not for me...but good aguments may be made on both sides of the issue...and we're at least all sailors! I would like to see those statistics though since I've never read anything I could believe "for sure" and would like to understand what the CG did and their conclusions. No rush...just PM me when you run across them in the future.
Let me ask you something...not to say one type of boat is better than another overall....but in REALLY bad ocean conditions...would you rather be on a cat or a monohull. Assume both boats are as good as can be for ocean conditions.
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2007
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I'd rather be on a Trimaran...not a cat or a monohull.
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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #28  
Old 02-27-2007
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SD...spoken like a politician!!
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  #29  
Old 02-27-2007
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Cam- I merely speak the truth...what I sail is a Trimaran...and what I prefer is a trimaran... many folks seem to forget the trimarans when they start talking multihulls...
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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #30  
Old 02-27-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
Cam- I merely speak the truth...what I sail is a Trimaran...and what I prefer is a trimaran... many folks seem to forget the trimarans when they start talking multihulls...
I think some people consider them a proa choice of multihull.

(running, ducking...)
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