'The Perfect Boat' - Page 5 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 03-07-2007
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Beacon, New York
Posts: 652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Tartan34C will become famous soon enough
Yes, zmfmd has an unusual idea of what makes a perfect boat. But itís his idea of perfection that counts to him.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #42  
Old 03-07-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
I wish him luck...and hope that he figures out how to design the boat he is looking for...
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

StillóDON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #43  
Old 03-07-2007
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
zmfmd is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
Good points Robert...

Part of the real problem is that no one design or solution is really going to be applicable to every use of a boat. Boats are generally designed for the function they are going to be used for. Tugboats are designed with oversized engines, transmissions and props... which would be totally ridiculous on most other boats their size, but completely necessary for them to perform their function.

Most boats do not need to have self-righting, self-bailing, unsinkability, and alternate forms of propulsion as a general rule. Affordability would be a nice feature, but it is often excluded by the design and function of the boat. You can't really design an inexpensive tugboat, since any boat that is sturdy enough and powerful enough to function as a tugboat, is going to be relatively expensive.

This is true of most designs... and it just seems to me that zmfmd has an unrealistic idea that there is a perfect boat, in the Platonic idea of perfection. No boat is perfect, and no boat can be perfect for all purposes. Different functions will have different requirements, and some of those requirements are less useful for boats with other functions as their priority.
I cant understand why my boat with the criteria of being unsinkable/selfrighting/selfbailingl with multiple propulsion system and affordable so unusual....remember such a boat does exist, and its the lifeboats we mentioned in earlier posts. I noticed you keep mentioning that it should be designed for a specific purpose..like the tug-boat example you gave..and i would add other examples like a race boat (speed), trawlers, cargo etc..well my is desighned with specific purpose..and that is SAFTY. Just imagin i call you over to a marina and show a boat..20 ft long, and i tell you it has all the above criteria (and regarding the propulsion system it has a 40hp outboard, and in a long copartment at the bottom has a pole that could retracted upwards to be rigged with a simple sail, and beside it oars, both of which could be used as backup s)...and i tell it costs (without the motor) 6000 US$ (six thousand $). Now this is a realistic figure..would you still oppose its production?...and if i tell you will be used by most fishermen all over the world particularly in the developing countries..and statistically it would save several hundred live annually..would you still think its an unusual or impracticle idea?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #44  
Old 03-08-2007
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
zmfmd is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartan34C
www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0530e/t0530e00.htm
www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm

Just to get you started and give you a way to get in touch with the group that did the work for the UN. I donít know much about the project but one of the people at work is familiar with the project and I will ask him about it tomorrow.

Rolf Eliason is the author of the article in Professional Boatbuilder. He did some work on designing self righting into boats and may be a good source of information.
All the best,
Robert Gainer.
great links..interestingly the last few pages in the wooden design shows a very simple sail rig as a backup..and another fig. to make a shelter to protect from rain or sun..
i trie to look at more publications but not able to..do i have to be a member or something?
So going back to my vision of the "safest boat" (note the change?!..the i like the"perfect Boat" better..no matter..do you have any ideas as to how to start making the first prototype?..i can start a "workshop" on my own and finf a proffessional in the fiberglass business, and modify a 20 footer boat..or find a boat manufacturer to do it ..or sponcer it..etc..you see i have no idea about these things..
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #45  
Old 03-08-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Zmfdm-

Most of those lifeboats, that are used by the RNLI and USCG are far from affordable.

I doubt you could produce a 20' boat with a 40 HP outboard for any where near $6000, even if the motor wasn't included in the price.

I don't oppose its production... I just seriously doubt that it is possible to do what you're looking to do. I believe that smaller boats are fairly difficult to make self-righting, without a keel. Keels tend to lead to boats that don't meet the unsinkable critieria. A mast strong enough to be useful to propel a 20' boat with a 40HP outboard is fairly expensive to construct, more so if it has to be collapsable.

I did a search on Boats.com for a boat costing between $5000 and $10000, and only used the following criteria: Any type of boat, Fiberglass as the hull material, between 19 and 24 feet in length. Very few are listed for less than $6000, and all the ones that are, are used and over 20 years old as a general rule.

Building a boat is a fairly expensive proposition. For instance, a 12' rowboat sells new for between $1000 and $2500 depending on the design, materials, features.

There was only one boat in that search that I saw from the last two years, and it was a hurricane capsize 23' boat that was selling for $10000.

It just seems to me that you have no real world idea of what it costs to manufacture a boat. Boats are fairly complicated in terms of construction, especially if you add features like a collapsable emergency mast. Making one that would not be at risk of capsize under sail, that is designed primarily as a powerboat seems to be at best difficult to do. The forces on the boat change when you go from being a powerboat to being a wind-driven sailboat.

Boats in general are really not "affordable". Even a wooden dugout canoe isn't really affordable. The time and effort it takes to make one yourself is a huge investment... and buying one that someone else has made is not going to be affordable in terms of the economic scale of the person who made the dugout canoe. While buying one may be affordable to someone from an industrialized society, to another native, it would be a sizeable investment.

$6000 USD in many countries is more than a year's income. I would not consider that affordable. If you add the cost of a 40 HP outboard, then the price has gone up another $3500-4000 or so. Most fishermen in developing countries couldn't afford that.

Until you have some grasp of what the reality of marine manufacturing and the associated costs are, you really shouldn't be talking about "affordable" boats...and safety. Most of the developing world puts safety aside in favor of affordability, as safety is a luxury they can not afford.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

StillóDON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #46  
Old 03-08-2007
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Beacon, New York
Posts: 652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Tartan34C will become famous soon enough
Zmfdm,
You may be trying to do too much in one project. Building an inexpensive boat is a project in itself. Some really neat ideas have been tried with varying degrees of success over the years to just get that part right. Ferro-cement is one example of a material used to build fishing boats without the cash that fiberglass needs or the skill that wood needed.

A real neat idea was explosion forming of hulls in steel. Steel is about the cheapest building material around and anybody can weld so itís a popular material for fishing boats. Someone in Australia made hulls by joining two steel ellipses together by welding along the edges with dynamite between them. He put the steel plates in a pool and detonated the charge. The result after cutting the two apart were round bottom double ended seamless steel boats without the expense of welding up a lot of parts.

Maybe you should focus on one or two aspects of the project just to get started and when you have some cash flow and a demonstrated success refine the idea and expand on it.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #47  
Old 03-08-2007
pigslo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 804
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
pigslo is on a distinguished road
It sounds to me like a scaled down Macgregor 26x with flotation. Remember the Mc 26x was addressing the demand in the market for a compromise and that is what this project is, a reshuffle of the parts to meet a different set of needs.
pigslo

Last edited by pigslo; 03-08-2007 at 10:12 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #48  
Old 03-09-2007
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
zmfmd is on a distinguished road
Sailingdog, Tartan34c , pigslo
Thanks for your eye-opener post..you sure bite hard (sialingdog). youre right in alot of what you said..particularly that i lack of what the reality of marine industry and its associated costs is all aboyt ..thats a fact. But where does this leave me?..i still think it could be done and its almost like an obsession..a vision or concept that i woulk like to see happen, and quickly..maybe thats the problem..some have described me as too idealistic others as naive..and now unrealistic..but thats the story of my life..i did a lot of reading in the direction Tartan34c pointed out..particullarly some of the reports in the FAO of the UN..and particularly the report titled "fishing boat construction:2-Building a fiberglass fishing boat"..yeah sure thing ,this is a complicated issue..so like you both pointed out ,one needs to accomplish this -if at all possible- one criteria at a time..and hey, believe it or not i started already..i had my 24ft motorboat out (have it for almost 15 years, mainly fishing) , basically for anti fouling and periodic maintenance of its 2 yamaha 4-stroke engines...so i asked them alo to remove the whole floor..including the floor of its its small cabin..and will calculate how much foam i need to add to make it unsinkable and self-bailing..the rest of the ceiteria will have be looked into in the future.
So i decided to make my current boat a ginea pig to experiment on..while i continue my intensive reading on the "how to do it" ..i already feel i have the needed theoretical information - altho you can always learn more, just like how much more info i learnt from you guys and all who posted in the past few days.
pigslo, its amazing what you mentioned in your post..because in many ways thats how this whole thing started...i do have another boat, a Macgregor 26M..which i bought about 2 years ago, the reason i bought it is after hearing about people stranded because of engine failure..it occured to me that it would be nice to have a motroboat that could sail in case of engine failure..i kept mentioning this to people untill someone mentioned the Macgregor, that it is a nice sailing boat that could cruise with its 50hp outboard at 20 to 25 knots! AND it is also unsinkable and is self-righting..and they send you a short video demonstrating all that...so i bought it..unfortunatly i could not use it for fishing the way i do it...and to cruise that fast you need to empty its water-ballast tank, and retract its dagger board and rudders....BUT, then it becomes very unstable, and off-shore could capsize easily (remember i mentioned with an empty ballast tank..but if its full its very stable and would never capsize)..actually the manufacturer reccommends to keep the ballast tank full at all times. Well at the time my experience with sailing was limited to hobby-cats,lasers, windsurfing and the like when going to resorts for vacation. And no immediate sailing schools to have a crach course so i bought all the videos,CDs and books relating to sailing i could find...in the process and i was gradually getting addicted to this fascinating sport, i got more involved in reading about the physics, meteorology, the waves and the wind..how this ingenius design evolved over thousands of years...so i did more sailing than fishing..learning more and more about the sciences related to it..and read the book "the perfect storm".which scared the heckout of me, and which the author mentioned the book "Oceonography and seamanship) by Van Don as his main reference for researching the data in his book..an excellent book...which led to me buying other books related to the matter: "Seaworthiness- the forgotten factor" by C.A. Marchaj, and "Heavy weather guide" by Kotsch and Henderson.
And one day while sailing it hit me..why cant motor boats be designed like this one: unsinkable, selfrighting, and with double propulsion systems (sail, and outboard)..and with all the info in my head tfrom he above books i had to add selfbailing. Affordability is relative thing.
Well, there you have it !!..i guess the above long post- i hope not too boring - would give some insight as to how im thinking and whats making me tick in that direction. That beside being a meticulous somewhat leaning to being slightly obscessive/compulsive when it comes to safty, Visualize MONK..the TV series? somethink like that !! ) and certain incidents in the sea , and the contents of those books, and the movie...i had to do something about it..that something is "the perfect boat" im deaming of spreading its concept allover..(with little success so far !!) !!!..
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #49  
Old 03-09-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
I do wish you luck, and if by some chance, you do come up with a way to make a decent performing powerboat, that sports an emergency mast and sails for your $6000, I wish you luck in marketing it.

I would caution you though, in that MacGregors are far from unsinkable. The belief that they are is rather dangerous.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

StillóDON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #50  
Old 03-09-2007
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Beacon, New York
Posts: 652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Tartan34C will become famous soon enough
Zmfmd,
Donít get discouraged because every great idea in history first met with ridicule and the inventor usually had as much trouble getting recognition as the problems he had in inventing the thing in the first place. Everything you want to do is possible but you will need to work at the arrangement. And you donít yet have the background to do the design work so you need to start by studying a bit in that field.

Be careful about adding all the flotation under the deck on your boat. That will make the boat float upside down if you swamp her. You need to have some flotation along the sides or someplace else up high to keep the boat from rolling over.
Good luck and all the best,
Robert Gainer
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trailering? Pick a Boat Bruce Caldwell Cruising Articles 0 07-22-2004 08:00 PM
Rust Never Sleeps John Kretschmer Buying a Boat Articles 0 02-27-2003 07:00 PM
buying first boat jerrycooper14 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 21 04-23-2002 02:15 PM
Two-Boat Tuning Dean Brenner Racing Articles 0 03-13-2002 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:40 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.