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Life Lines

3K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 ·
I am restoring an older 27' boat and think it would look better without the life lines. I have only 8-10 " of walking room around the cabin top anyway. They see to be more of a trip hazard than a safety feature. Would like to leave the bow and stern pulpits for hanging the anchor, mounting the grill etc. I will be sailing inland lakes for a while and can't see the need to spend the money for no reason. Any thoughts?
 
#2 ·
At the very least, string some rope, if you don't want to spend the money on lifelines. Going with nothing, I think would be a very bad idea.
 
#3 ·
Do you have all the lines lead aft to the cockpit—main halyard, topping lift, reefing lines, cunningham, outhaul, etc. Do you have the genoa/jib on a roller furler with the furling lines led to the cockpit?

If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then you might not need the lifelines/stanchions. However, if you are going to do this, you will want to equip the boat with jacklines, preferably central to the boat, but port and starboard if necessary.
 
#5 ·
We sailed many years on a 24 foot raceboat that had no stanchions or lifelines. No one ever fell off the boat because the lifelines weren't there. Once you are accustomed to the idea, it's not so bad. In fact, I once sailed on the same design that had lifelines (due to it being a distance race and the rules required them) and they were noticeably in the way and sailing the boat was uncomfortable.

Many refer to them as "deathlines" given their greater likelihood of tripping you rather than saving you, especially on smaller boats.

If you and your crew are relatively agile and surefooted, and you're unlikely to be often sailing in particularily rough conditions you'll probably be fine without them.
 
#8 ·
Faster,

I must respectfully disagree, as your advice is bad.

Keep the damn lifelines!
As will many, I'm sure....

But my point was, and Semi Jim made it as well, that they are not really "lifelines" in that they are unlikely to save anyone on their way overboard. On most boats they are 18-24 inches above deck at best, right around knee height - not an effective restraint unless you are already on your back.

Furthermore a 200 pounder falling across a boat into the lifelines could well break/bend/tear out stanchions on many more lightly constructed boats.

However: They ARE places to grab hold, they DO keep small persons and children within the confines of the deck, the DO help keep sails on deck, esp if netting or lacing is added.

Is it possible to run a boat without them? Absolutely, if the above mentioned aspects are not considered crucial.

BTW I have lifelines and stanchions on our current boat, in fact have had on all our boats other than the one mentioned above - and have no intentions to remove them for the reasons stated.

The question was - could they come off - and under certain intended usage and conditions I'd say yes they could.
 
#7 ·
Colour me stupid, but I fail to see how one could trip over a lifeline--unless one were in the process of going over the side already, anyway.

I agree that for anybody over a height of about three or four feet, a lifeline isn't likely to keep one from going in the drink if you're thinking about it as a kind of "safety net." To me: That is not the purpose of lifelines. To me: They're something to hang on to when there's nothing more substantial about, such as a shroud or grip rail.

Normally.

Suppose you had to go forward in adverse conditions. Say you judged on-coming weather wrongly and had to get up front to take down the jib rather later than you should have. Weather and seas are so bad you can only get there safely (for some value of "safely") by crawling. You have no jacklines for the same reason that jib's still up. Wouldn't you rather have those lifelines between you and the water? I know I would.

Jim
 
#9 ·
As Faster say's, a lot depends on the boat. On my 21' Cal they would be particularly inconvenient if installed. The stanchions would be tripping you up more than any safety benefit derived from the lifelines. In my opinion, you are much more likely to be hurt by tripping than you are to be saved by the lifelines. As stated, for them to do much good you'd have to already be off your feet. Given that most lifelines are located well below your center of gravity, it is not like they are holding you on board. You're more likely to grab them on your way overboard than anything else. How well they perform at that time is dependant upon the quality of initial installation and subsequent maintenance. Given the below deck construction of most boats, how often do those stanchions get re-bedded?

Once again, I am finding myself in agreement with the Dog. Why not install something that works? Something that has a much greater potential to keep you on board versus clinging to the side. A well thought out set of jacklines coupled with an adjustable harness should be a higher priority than lifelines. That system will actually aid you when things get nasty.

I'm not sure that I'd remove lifelines already installed, unless they are a hindrance to mobility, and many can be. They certainly are an aid to containing adrift sails. This is certainly a subject that one cannot make any hard and fast statements on as it must depend upon the boat and her intended use.
 
#11 ·
Skip and I are not big on stanchions, hence, traditional life lines are not on MISTRESS. Stanchions cause deck leaks, and I find life lines are more often set too low for me, and feel they do not give me the security I want. I like jack-lines and this is what we will have when we take off, however, right now we have something that is working out quite nicely. He purchased small stainless steel rings which he tied onto some of the standing rigging around the boat with Marlin Spike type technique. When we are ready to go sailing we thread the rings with a heavy line, pull it real tight, and use this for a life line. It works very well. It is at a height I prefer, the line is thicker then traditional life lines which I like for support, and when we get back from sailing it is easy to remove allowing easy access to the dingy and, well, she looks better without life lines and stanchions all the time. This life line does not go around the bow, but instead angles down to the forward hause pipes on either side. This would be our only vulnerable area, however there are many other things to attach yourself too for security.
Kathleen
aboard
Schooner MISTRESS
 
#12 ·
BTW, I have lifelines and stanchiions that I could mount on my boat...that go along the outsides of the amas... but we very rarely ever bother. Of course, going forward on a 18'-wide boat with 1' tall bulwarks along the ama decks is a bit safer regardless of the conditions.. :D
 
#14 ·
Vardaman,

I like your idea very very much. Awsome...get creative!! Get them off if they anoy you..... Keep the kids idiots and the potential fall over's in the cockpit, I am sure you know what you're doing if you're even asking about removing them. You don't seem stupid.

I love clean toe rails and clean sides (I only have FIXED life lines because European Certification makes me have them, and to make sure the kids stay inside the boat), but if I had your boat to sail around and do a few races..... I am not telling you to do this, but if I were in your shoes, this is what I would do.

Take a look at this:

I would have a small stainless steel rail made to fit, just like the old America's cup boats and just like the Portugal Match race boats!!





Now that's sexy...
 
#16 ·
Giu - great shot (SD will think you didn't take it!)

What boats are those?

Further on the stanchion/lifelines thing - note that the recent trend of high end "daysailers" from Spirit, Hinckley, Morris etc have decided to go without for aesthetic reasons.
 
#17 ·
Faster,

I did not take that photo, that's from the web site on the Portuguese match racing. This year is held at the same place my Son Fred raced last month, Setubal and Troia. In fact in some photos you can see the Power Plant stacks that you can see in my son's thread.

Those are the Portuguese version of the Swedish Match boats. 12 meter (40 foot) replicas of America's cup boats, raced in the same way, but near the shore for people to see.

Its very exciting and fast. Racing is invitational. These 6 boats are kept in my marina all year round, and I see them almost everyday. They get painted (stickers) for each event. Its very nice to see.
 
#19 ·
If you need a cheap fix that looks pro, buy a roll of this.
they also sell the loop ends and crimping hardware. mines been on for over
a year and still looks new, very functional and alot of compliments and how to questions:cool:
Safe working load is only 184 pounds!!! Is this what you are recommending???
The smallest wire used commercially is 1/8" and the more common wire for
lifelines is 3/16". And 1/8" lifeline wire has a safe working load of 340 pounds
while 3/16" has a safe working load of 740 pounds.

As a decoration it might look just fine but I hope you are not planning on
using this to keep you from going over the side.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
 
#20 ·
NoDoubt, Your way out of line. All he did was state a fact. Many lifelines are 3/16 and have 3 times the working load.
 
#22 ·
NoDoubt, I suspect Bob Gainer was hanging onto boats in gales when you were still in your father's ballsack. I have found his comments consistently fair, redolent of real-life sailing experience, and humble enough to state his mistakes and screw-ups, whereby he lived to tell the tale. I also find his tone in writing the opposite of "berating": he was merely stating the obvious (to me): something meant to keep a dog in a yard is probably insufficient to keep a man on a knocked-down deck. Not in my world, anyway.

There is no one right answer here, but for inland lakes, I like the jackline and/or multiple padeye idea, or simply a slightly beefed-up toerail or SS pipe bulwark, like Giu illustrates. If he were someplace likely to produce waves that would float him right off the deck (and this has happened to me on Lake Ontario on the bow), you want to wash up against something that will let the water off and keep you on. Height doesn't matter when you are on your ass or on all fours with an unhanked jib in your hand.

Now, as for lifelines, I believe I have the solution: Lifepipes! I never trip on them, they are hip-height, not knee-height, and people assume I'm some sort of ship twice as distant as I appear to be.

 
#23 · (Edited)
No offense taken Bob, I was merely stating a quick fix. as lifelines are only a safety and precautionary device anyway and not a life saving device. Lowes advertises a "184 lb working load", west marine advertises "average breaking strength" for their 3/32=1/8 covered line. there has to be a disclaimer due to liability reasons on lowes part. a person slipping on deck does not regularly generate 184lbs of force. I can however attest that it will hold the wife, kid and I (384 lbs) in our back yard hammock suspended 24" from the ground. The only thing I recommend for a life saving device is a properly worn PFD, and then... i still question them.:rolleyes:

edit: Valiente, thats totally sweet!
 
#24 ·
Giu-

You didn't take that photo... :D (I had to say it to keep Faster happy.) ;)

I do like the stanchionless example youve picked...
 
#26 ·
btw, Giu usually has trouble keeping track of his camera... much less having it around to take such a photo. :D
 
#27 ·
Everything on our boat runs to the cockpit; even with that I would not consider removing the lifelines.

Two years ago we were caught in a squall with 40 knot winds gusting to almost 60 knots. As the storm came in and we prepared the boat to ride it out our port jib sheet became securely caught at the base of the port shrouds. Now we were on a starboard tack, heading towards shore unable to tack or reef, someone had to go and either release or cut the line. We headed into the wind, sails luffed, and my lovely mate, connected to a jackline & wearing a PFD went fwd to release the line in our slacked jib. At the moment she releases the line, a gust shifted direction and she hadn't noticed she was straddling the line. Jib fills and she gets pinned against the lifeline and the jib sheet. She was bruised, but still in the boat. I steered into the winds new direction and she came back aft, still dry.

I am not saying we reacted perfectly, but found out the hard way that they are beneficial. They also are not really below your center of gravity, trust me she wasn't walking there and back upright and this all happened before the storm really blew. To ensure they do not impede a rescue I would make sure they weren't one solid strand along the side but have at least 2 or 3 clips between posts along the length. Having a section fwd, one mid, and one aft that you can easily open would work well.

Yes they can be a nuisance at the dock or sailing in 10-15 knot winds; but that's probably not when you'll need them either. Trust me, we didn't go out looking to find out if our foulies would really keep us dry that day.
 
#28 ·
Bear in mind that working load does not consider the increased load of a 200# person falling from 6' high. The loads generated by such a falling object are much higher than "working load" of just the weight of a person. Of course an average pig weighs more than 200#s but is much shorter than an average human so it balances out.
pigslo
 
#29 ·
Estimated load caused by a body falling 6' is much higher than what those lifelines are rated at. That's why the breaking strength of jacklines is generally recommended to be at least 6000 lbs.—not that anyone weighs 6000 pounds...but that much force can be generated in a cross the boat fall.
 
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