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Tandem in-line anchor setup

9K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  Valiente 
#1 ·
I thumbed thru CW on my way out this morning and they had an article about setting 2 anchors in line, not at 45° angle. The diagram showed chain running from the crown of your primary up to a second one. If your primary drags it will only settle the second one deeper.

I have never used this particular setup, can anyone comment on their experience with this?
 
#2 · (Edited)
I anchor many many times in a place called Culatra Island, here in Portugal.

It has 3 to 5 knot currents twice a day, in both directions.

I have been using the tandem method here, for over 20 years, and never draged once. Do it only one anchor I don't care what anchor.....and bye bye...

I use a smaller Danforth anchor (14kg) with 10 feet of rope, attached to the "head" of my main anchor, a 28Kg plow, then chain, then rope. Here is what everyone uses, or you're dragging all the time.

Works for me, and for the others. Our bottom is mud / sand / weed.

Some say its a disater waiting to happen (specially Craig Smith of Rocna, but he is he, and I am me....,) if the smaller first anchor rolls around the primary as the boat circles with the current. So far in over 20 years no problem what so ever.

I do it.

Here is a drwing

 
#4 ·
It seems simple on the schematic drawing, but I have issues with the basic design, particularly anchor deployment and stowage.

How do you store that contraption on your removable bow roller Alex, or is the Danforth clipped onto the plow with each set, then unclipped when weighing anchor?

If so, doesn't it make an awful mess of Giulietta's beautiful teak foredeck?

What happens to the plow when current/wind shifts to the reciprocal - does the plow reset again downcurrent from the Danforth without fouling the Danforth?
 
#5 ·
I believe the intent of the article was to unclip the chain & feed into the windlass after first anchor is stowed. I did not read the entire article but that could get ugly quickly, especially in rough conditions.

I did not scan parts relating to deployment.

Hopefully Alex or someone else w/ experience in this setup can clarify. Perhaps I should read the entire article as well.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Ok, let's see if I can explain how I do it.<O:p</O:p
<O:p
I do not keep the smaller front anchor on the bow roller, only the main. My boat has a pretty big anchor locker, and I keep the small Danforth there, on a side shelf I had made for it during construction. The Danforth has a permanent 3 meter (10 feet) line attached to it at all times. Why 3 meters ? that is the length required to clear my bow when it is hanging vertically from my main anchor.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

This is what I do, once I need to anchor, I remove the line attached to the Danforth, keeping the anchor still inside the locker, I tie it with a bowline to the main anchor's head. Now at this stage the main is still in the roller. But if you have double rollers it's the same.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I remove the Danforth and drop it slowly, by hand (because my bow is very vertical, plum??). Now the Danforth hangs from the main anchor, and its shaft clears the bottom of my bow because of the 3 meter rope, which also allows for clearance should the boat rock or move while we are setting up.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I then use the drop anchor electric button to descend the main, as it descends, the danforth goes in front of it.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I let the anchor set naturally, and power back a little to help the set.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

It normally holds on first drop, because of the two anchors. <O:p</O:p
I believe the key to not having ever fouled the danforth on the plow is the small 3 meter line.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Val, I have used this anywhere from 13 feet (as you know I draw 10 feet so can't go any lower), at low tides to 26 feet at high tides in Culatra, with the stong currents we have there.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I have also used it as deep as 80 feet in Cascais. This is a common procedure used here, and I have never ever fouled it once. I have used a tripping line attached to the main anchor, as its less stuff to pull up, as opposed to attaching to the danforth, then having to pull the danforth and the tripping line.
<O:p</O:p
</O:p
TB, I explained how I have it stowed above, it's a USE AS NEEDED system, only when we are moored for a long time, and the current is strong, as in that case. On normal day to day few hour anchor, I don't bother.
<O:p</O:p

The system is pretty simple, attach, drop, then anchor normally.<O:p
<O:p</O:p
Don't forget that once the main is stored in the roller, the boat is loose, so be quick at pulling the tandem anchor, or you will be moving.
<O:p</O:p
It does not soil the deck because it goes straight into the locker. A friend of mine as a Anchor holder in the pull pit near the roller, so his system is even better.

<O:p</O:p
As I said, I have used this for 20 years now, never had a problem, I know that as the current changes, the plow moves first, and sets normally, if it drags, the danforth sets again, helping the plow set also, by pulling its head down.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Again, 2 tides a day, both direction and up to 5 knots current sometimes, the current is so strong, that sometimes, my boat being light is facing a different direction than the other boats!!!
<O:p</O:p
Everyone got used to see my boat facing weird directions, and stay away from me!! Ehehehehehe
<O:p</O:p
I hope this helps.

Please remember this is my technique, others may have theirs, and their opinions, and what not&#8230;.that may vary with conditions, sea beds and winds&#8230;<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Alex

"The Portagee Cowboy"

PS..Craig I don't want a new anchor (VBG)
 
#7 ·
Thanks for that very well written clarification. I now see that this setup is adaptable to a number of adverse conditions - but more so for relatively long term anchorage.

Contrary to what some "contemporary" anchor salemen (and owners) preach in response to "what is the best anchor" questions, I have had unfaultering results with our 35# CQR (authentic article - not generic with those mysterious lead tips), 250 feet of 5/16" Hi-Test chain and proper powersetting. In a 40 knot gale a few weeks ago, we held fast upwind while others, anchored downwind from us, spent the night fending off their stern ends from downwind vessels.
 
#8 ·
TB... it ain't just salesmen that don't think much of them. I have a #60 on my bow and compared to my Delta ....well there is no comparison. Same with my #35 that I inherited on my last boat. They are a lot better than Danforths in a lot of conditions but I really think they have been left behind by several competitors now. I would never spend my money on one...but there are probably more of them holding boats tonight than any other type. If it works for you in your cruising grounds...fine and no problem.
Just pointing out that as a multiple CQR owner and user...I choose other brands now.
 
#20 ·
This is my main anchor, by the way, the one I call plow...(what do you call that in the US?) ...I would NOT use a Danforth as a main. For the record.
That's a real CQR plow, Alex, by the look of it a 20 kg. one.

Your system...I think I'll try it. It's like the use of a kellet in FRONT of the main anchor's flukes...even poorly set itself, the weight and drag will tend to push the flukes of the main anchor in firmly.

The Danforth is good as a "lunch hook" (an anchor for calm conditions when you want to just hang out for a few hours), and it can make a good second anchor for when you are expecting a wind shift (it's set 45 degrees on the lee side), and it can be a very nice stern anchor.

It's useful, but limited in many ways. I know a lot of people on Lake Ontario use it as a main, but it's not suitable to do so beyond casual daysailing activities, in my view.

Of course, I still carry a Yachtsman's, so I'm a little squirrelly on the topic of anchors.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Thanks TB, actually I did some searching and found my anchors's names. I bought my anchors from Plastimo in Europe. The main, that looks like a CQR is called a Soc Anchor, and the smaller one in the front anchor, that I was calling a Danforth is actually called a Brittany anchor.

Check the link above, wait for it to lad, then see under anchors.

Even with different names, they are similar to the Danforth and CQR, aren't they?

The name doesn't really matter. That is what I have here since I used diapers.
 
#22 ·
Even with different names, they are similar to the Danforth and CQR, aren't they?
.
Very similar. The English term is "knock-off". A less common knock-off is of the Bruce anchor, a non-articulating plow type. A real Bruce is forged, not cast, and is expensive, but in certain conditions is a very nice anchor to have.

The CQR gets its name in English because it sounds like "secure" when you run the letters together...a subtlety a Portuguese English speaker might not have immediately "heard".

We English-speakers are constantly fooling around with our own language. It's amazing anyone else bothers to learn it, really.;)

You and "Mr. Lead Head" should speak English to each other occasionally, just so he can get some practice. He's surprisingly good, considering he doesn't get the opportunity you get travelling on business. Fred's English is unbelievable, and even Giulietta's is pretty good. The thing that amazes me is how "light" their accents are...you know I know a Portuguese accent when I hear it, and Fred sounds like a Canadian kid half the time. It's only when he hits an unfamiliar or strangely-spelled word in English that I can hear the innately Portuguese element in his pronounciation.

But I digress...(I am waiting for a client to call so I can finish my job and go sailing...you know how this is.)
 
#13 · (Edited)
I thumbed thru CW on my way out this morning and they had an article about setting 2 anchors in line, not at 45° angle. The diagram showed chain running from the crown of your primary up to a second one. If your primary drags it will only settle the second one deeper.

I have never used this particular setup, can anyone comment on their experience with this?
Argh.

I can comment. Thanks for the intro Giulietta.

I will comment that -
  • Using anchors of multiple types, particularly a Danforth, is asking for trouble.
  • Shackling to the trip-line attachment point of a CQR, Delta, Bruce, or other anchor with this feature, is asking for trouble.
  • Giulietta's mentions in this thread, and the past, have covered very light loads. 3-5 knots current is not at all significant. In the more extreme conditions the technique should be reserved for, he will get the trouble he has been asking for.
On the trip-line attachment point - any article instructing this be used for a tandem anchor is incredibly ignorant and should be condemned. I cannot state this point forcefully enough.

Otherwise, I will only redirect readers to my article on the topic. The issue is involved enough that what I've written is over 5000 words, and that's the concise version. Those serious about needing this technique will take the time to study the issue carefully.
http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/tandem-anchoring.php

Now, on behalf of all anchor salesmen, particularly those representing the better types, I encourage the reader to do as many things wrong as they possibly can. We tend to notice a connection between dragging and scary experiences, and subsequent new Rocna sales... :rolleyes:
 
#17 ·
Craig...

Like I said, I used it like that for 20 years...really...so does the rest of the people I knw, and if we had trouble, I would have known about it.

Very very few boats here drag. The latest was a power yacht, in 2004 with one of those fancy stainless things that look like a manta ray. Destryed in a cove.

Look, I use the anchor to hold my boat, you use it to make a living...we can't argue, can we?? (VBG)!!
 
#18 · (Edited)
Giulietta, trying to support your argument by saying that "very very few boats drag" in your area is hardly convincing - it only demonstrates the conditions there are less than demanding. In another discussion I believed you mentioned "20 - 30 knots wind" as further proof that there is nothing wrong with your technique.

This simply doesn't apply to long term cruisers who have real need to use tandem anchors. In moderate to good holding, a decent anchor of baby size will hold your boat in your conditions... the forces are trivial. Once you have used your tandem set-up in 50 or 60 knots wind, with bad surge, and a shifting wind direction, then you get to claim it is well tested and "never any problems".

Sorry for the harshness, but you are misleading people badly and providing information is what these forums are for. Please take careful note of the other expert opinions which may be found on this topic, including some directly mentioned here... Alain Poiraud (Spade), Jean-Louis Goldschmid (Glénans school), the British MAIB, Charles E Kanter, etc. Don't accuse me of not being credible in this context, it doesn't affect our bottom line what people do with their anchors once they've bought them...
 
#19 ·
Craig-
The article the OP was refering to ws written by Evans Stargazer (sp?). I'll take his word (and John Rousmanerie (again, sp?)[edit: "and Alex"]) over yours any day. Also sorry for the harshness.

Mike
 
#21 ·
Regardless of how well or poorly Mr. Smith's anchors hold, or how many test reports he has posted in the past, I would rather keep what has worked for me, or choose another anchor if I had the need, over selecting his products.

His marketing approach by hi-jacking threads, is comparable to telemarketers who choose to call during dinner hour, or their spammer relatives who relentlessly clog forums and our email inboxes with their uninvited solicitations.
 
#24 ·
His marketing approach by hi-jacking threads, is comparable to telemarketers who choose to call during dinner hour, or their spammer relatives who relentlessly clog forums and our email inboxes with their uninvited solicitations.
Umm... I think this may be a tad unfair. While I don't know anything about Mr. Smith's anchors, his previous posts, or Mr. Smith for that matter, it would appear he was practically invited into this particular thread by Giu in the very second post to this thread. I wouldn't classify that as a hi-jack but a direct response.

I would ask... is there any reliable, independent test results out there that cover all of these types of anchors and conditions? Wouldn't this already have been a subject of extensive tests at Practical Sailor? I'm still pretty much a N00b, and between boats at that, but it would seem there should be some pretty sound test results out there... independent, unsponsored tests.
 
#23 ·
Mr Smith:

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#25 ·
Looking-
One of the major sail mags recently did a piece on comparing anchors, but comparative tests are only as good as the test conditions (i.e. if they only tested in mud, it doesn't help you if you normally anchor in a rocky cove...). I believe it prompted a 'interesting' thread in this site. I recommend doing a search of this site for the threads about anchors. I think the 'debating' really does a better job of exploring the pros and cons of each anchor. If you can get through the personal attacks and the 'paid advertising', I think you may find your answer.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Looking,

I'll be as repetitious as Mr. Smith is in hawking his products, by repeating two forum rules he breaches with each of his 71 posts -

* Post messages promoting a commercial enterprise - this is only permitted for paying SailNet Advertisers

* Include links in your postings to commcerial enterprises in an effort to promote those enterprises regardless of your personal involvement in that enterprise - this is only permitted for paying SailNet Advertisers

You may think I'm a "tad unfair", but in my opinion his constant anchor bashing to promote his anchors gets a tad tiresome.
 
#27 ·
The gist of this tandem anchoring is that you need to pick your anchors carefully and deploy them when you need them. I can see where it will work and there are a few places that stream mooring (an anchor out fore & aft) would be better, or two anchors set at a 45 degree angle.
Judging what method of anchoring you will use will come from experience and discussing the methods on sites like this with other sailors and find out what they have experienced. The main thing is to keep and open mind and an eye on the weather/tidal patterns where you are at.
 
#28 ·
With respect to the tandem anchoring technique in the OP, this article was essentially lifted from chapter 6 (pg 173-174) of the Voyager's Handbook second edition; "Some situations demand extra holding power, more than can be supplied by the primary anchor. This can be the case in some crowded Mediterranean anchorages, where it is not possible to put out adequate scope for the conditions. It can also be the case on a bottom with poor holding or in very high winds. In these situations, setting two anchors in tandem on the same rode provides additional holding power and will keep the primary anchor from dragging." ... "Tandem anchors are a common solution in Chile where high winds and rocky, kelp-covered bottoms cause anchors that have worked successfully everyplace else to drag".

I initially found the description of this technique in the book confusing, and had to re-read it several times before I understood. Seeing it again in CW reinforced the idea.

Alex's illustration, and explination were far clearer than those in either the Voyager's Handbook, or CW. Maybe he should be a consultant on the next version?

Finally, and I don't like going here, by stating that anyone's practice (never mind two well respected authors);
is incredibly ignorant and should be condemned. I cannot state this point forcefully enough.
is the beginning of another pissing contest...:rolleyes:

The OP asked if anyone had experience with the tandem anchoring technique. Alex stated that he did have experience with this technique, and he explained it very well.

Ed
 
#29 ·
I just looked at Alex's diagram again and noticed one difference between his technique, and that of the Voyager's Handbook. The connection between anchors in Alex's description is rope, and that in the VH (and CW) is chain and shackles. There is a rope on the Danforth, but it is only used for retrieving the danforth after the main is secure.
 
#30 ·
Eherlihy,

Long time ago, I used a chain also, and stopped using it, because first it was more weight I had to pull, remeber main anchor the motor pulls, the first, Alex does.... to attach and remove was a pain in the neck (I just do a quick bowline, which is fast, easy, secure, easy to remove and helps if you don't have time), because I needed to attach the shackle ( right name??), pulling anchor was slippery, and storing was messy.

If it was a permanent mooring, yes, for the time I am anchored 3 to 4 days, the rope is fine..Its not the floating rope, ok??

By the way, I am very aware of the 45º Double anchor, but here with the boat swinging twice a day from east to west, the anchors, if not set at exact lenghts (difficult to do), start approaching each other, as one holds one drags etc. and end up being worse, as that arrangement here ends up in a tangled mess. BY EXPERIENCE...
 
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