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  #11  
Old 08-02-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta View Post
I don't understand your question...

Are you going to cross the Horn?? What reefing friction are you talking about?
You lower the halyard, reef, then pull the halyard again...what friction?

Get a double line reef for the main, get a furler for the genoa and read this...

Get going as normal, as veryone else does, and above all ask the people building your boat, then once you decide to go around the Horn, worry about what the "worse" condition sail plan is....

There is nothing wrong in asking for a 3rd reef on the main. Just the holes in the sail, not the ropes to the cockpit.

I cannot comment on his boat, just mine. But when the T's came down the track and the boat was pitching, they get turned a bit sidewas and catch. It always seemed to happen just above hand reach from the deck. THis really was not an issue in 90% of the conditions - only when the storms crept up. The very strong gusty winds seem to pinch them in the track. It could be quite frustrating.

At least on my boat, when you drop the main, it often required some persuasion. THe amout depends on how hard it was blowing or rolling.

That is just my experience and why I HATED that part of the system. Of course, you just get used to it after a while, I guess. That is why the batt carr always interested me - it might actually keep me in the cockpit. That was also why my wife liked inmast - to keep us in the cockpit.

- CD
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2007
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Gents,

A hearty thanks to all for the great feedback. It is very helpful and informative.

As things are currently ordered for this boat, the fully battened main will be provided with Harken Batt-cars. The first & second reefs are led single-line to the cockpit. The builder states that experience has led them to configure the single-line system in such a way that tends to provide optimal sail shape. They report no negative feedback regarding "shaking out" friction. Regarding 2-line reefing - the boat accomodates (3) cam-cleats per side, but the builder is reluctant to add a 4th. I think it could be done but it would be tight.

I have requested a third reef so that a worst case sail plan is available if ever needed (I intend to first & foremost avoid such circumstances if at all possible). The third reef is not currently led aft to the cockpit and would need to be set at the mast. I am perplexed by the fact that I would need to go forward in worst case conditions to set the third reef. I have considered handling the 1st reef from the mast and leading the 2nd and 3rd to the cockpit. This would improve things in that extremely rare event, but would not serve as well during the other 99.9% of the time.

I will continue to consider your advice and to consult with the builder. Thanks again.

Good sailing to all of you.

Lucky Jack
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2007
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Jack, if you are concerned about line friction, may I suggest getting religious about using "McLube" or a similar krytox-in-wax lubricant on all the sheeves those lines will turn in. First make sure the dirt is blown out, them lube them. It is amazing what a little of the right lube can do.

There are also folks who would say to actually pull the lines, and soak/spray them with McLube, or a teflon lube, so that the lines themselves are easier to pull through all the fittings. Obviously, not at the ends where you'll need to grip the lines. Using lines that have thinner, slicker jackets on them probably will also contribute highly to this. It is easy to get strong thin line these days, so much so that you might have to add on jacket at the ends to make it easier to grip.
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2007
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Jack

Here's what Quantum Sails has to say on the subject.

Full text here: http://www.quantumsails.com/pdf/Crui...0Inventory.pdf
Reefs
The number and location of reefs in the mainsail deserves thought. A third reef is a consideration for
offshore work, but I would recommend two reefs at slightly deeper locations than normal, approximately 15% and
32% of the luff length. Normally reefs are at roughly 12% intervals. With offshore sailing in mind deeper reefs make
sense. I would shy away from a third reef, and opt for a storm trysail instead. The third reef will decrease the overall
durability of the sail (by adding weight to the leech), and necessitate hardware changes to the boom to allow for a
third reef line. I guess the bottom line is have you ever tried going from a second to a third reef? The struggle
involved would suggest that being more conservative, and taking away more area with the second reef makes sense.

Storm Sails
Storm sails are in order for sailing offshore. A true storm jib with piston hanks for the inner forestay is the
only way to set the sail when the boat is equipped with a furling system. Realistically, it will be difficult, if not
impossible to change sails otherwise. The sail should be no larger than 5% of I squared in area, with a luff not to
exceed 65% of maximum available. It will probably need a tack pennant to raise the sail up so that it can be sheeted.
Few boats are set up with jib track far enough forward for this small a sail. A special pad eye may need to be installed.
A sailmaker needs to look at the geometry and sheeting options as part of the design.
For coastal passages of intermediate length a deep reef may suffice. Recognizing the fact that in sudden
squalls the mainsail will probable be dropped completely. It is only for sustained high wind conditions, when the
boat must be hove too, or sail upwind that mainsail area is needed. If built, a storm trysail should be no larger than
17.5% of P x E.
The final luff length often puts the head at the spreaders, or the termination of intermediate
shrouds for additional support. The tack is on an adjustable pennant which allows the sail to setup above the flaked
mainsail, and also controls the sheeting point. The foot is usually a foot or two shorter than the mainsail foot. The
boom is set on deck or cabintop when the sail is in use, and it is sheeted to the toe rail. The storm trysail should have
a separate track so it can be left with the luff attached at the base of mast, ready to go. Changing mainsail luff slides
when it gets windy enough to use the trysail will not be a task you want to take on.

Storm sails are largely intended as insurance. If there is a significant stretch of open ocean to cross, I'll take
out a policy and be thankful when I don't use them.
***************

I agree that a third reef is rather useless and a deep second is batter...if you need more than that...take the whole thing down!
Since you will have a nice smooth running system with battcars, the cockpit solution is better and safer...believe me...you don't want to go on deck any more than is absolutely necessary in gales/storms. It is downright scary and I would encourage you to also think about a heavy duty roller furling staysail rather than something requiring deck work. Nevertheless if you DO decide you need a storm jib...take a look at the ATN gale sail which can go over your roller furling.

I would hold off on a trysail track and purchase until such time as you decide to start crossing oceans...they are really a last resort sail for extended extreme conditions and you should be able to avoid such conditions on short passages. But...there is a measure of extra safety in having one...so it all depends on what you feel comfortable with yourself.

The sail inventory/deployment discussion is interesting but the goal is never to have to use those sails and extreme reefing! Being a weather fanatic is way better than having experience in rigging a trysail in 45 knots!

Last edited by camaraderie; 08-02-2007 at 10:49 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-02-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
I agree that a third reef is rather useless and a deep second is batter...if you need more than that...take the whole thing down!
Since you will have a nice smooth running system with battcars, the cockpit solution is better and safer...believe me...you don't want to go on deck any more than is absolutely necessary in gales/storms. It is downright scary and I would encourage you to also think about a heavy duty roller furling staysail rather than something requiring deck work. Nevertheless if you DO decide you need a storm jib...take a look at the ATN gale sail which can go over your roller furling.

I would hold off on a trysail track and purchase until such time as you decide to start crossing oceans...they are really a last resort sail for extended extreme conditions and you should be able to avoid such conditions on short passages. But...there is a measure of extra safety in having one...so it all depends on what you feel comfortable with yourself.

The sail inventory/deployment discussion is interesting but the goal is never to have to use those sails and extreme reefing! Being a weather fanatic is way better than having experience in rigging a trysail in 45 knots!
Thanks.......
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  #16  
Old 08-02-2007
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BTW, I'd second the recommendation of an ATN GaleSail if you don't want to retrofit the boat with an inner stay for a storm staysail. I have one on-board my boat.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #17  
Old 08-02-2007
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Jaysus SD...with all the junk you have on your boat...how is it still floating???

Do you ever use all the West Marine Storage inventory you carry??
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  #18  
Old 08-03-2007
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Giu-

I hope never to need or use the GaleSail or the Jordan Series Drogue... but I have them just in case... Also, I hope never to use the flares or EPIRB... but again, they're there if the worst happens.

BTW, as to how the boat is still floating... I don't have 3000 lbs. of lead in the boat...
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #19  
Old 08-03-2007
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neither do I....
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  #20  
Old 08-03-2007
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