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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta View Post
SD, something like this you mean?? That's a problem free no hassle furler, that works just fine.
. o O Now that's what I call hardware!

Y'know, I look at roller furlers and think to myself "That doesn't really look all that robust." Then I read about three (3) roller furler failures in just a few days here on Sailnet, and I'm thinkin' we'll either stick with the Tuff Luff system that came with our boat, or convert to a hanked-on sail. (Surveyor says that Tuff Luff system will be a pure PITA with one person up front to take the foresail down in even moderate air.) But that roller furler you showed us, Giu, that one looks like a piece of hardware a sailor could trust. 'Course, it's probably got a price to match .

Jim
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2007
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Differential strain & torsion on twin-headstay rigs

SD, Robert,

Interesting to read your observations on twin headstay / backstay rigs. Apropos the point about balancing tension in the wires, here's how it's done: http://www.swainsons.com/gallery/dis...lbum=13&pos=10
click the picture to see a larger version. The stays are about 2 inches apart, so even if the hanks do hook both stays at once, it's not a problem to pull the sail down far enough to unhook them. This has only ever happened to me once, and only with the snap-hanks on my genoa, never with piston hanks (I don't even begin to see how piston hanks could snag both stays if they're properly closed in the first place).

In terms of sag, it helps that my boat's built like a brick outhouse ( approx 3/8" minimum skin thickness) and so I'm able to dial up the tension on the (3/16" stainless wire) stays a little more than the vintage of the boat might suggest is necessary.

The twin backstays, bolted to big, fully-glassed-in hanging knees either side of the transom, also act as running backstays, taking some of the sideways load of the rig when we're chopping along at 35 degrees of heel - a not unusual occurrence going to windward under full sail in a fresh breeze. I don't believe that this induces a significant degree of torsion, even assuming that the leeward stay goes slack (which it doesn't): The boat is roughly 10m long, so say the mast is 6m from the stern. The stays are about 1.5m apart at the stern, so the tangent of the maximum angle of deflection (when the mast is twisted in line with the windward backstay) would be 0.75/6, making the angle 7.12 degrees. That degree of twist over a length of 11m or so (approx. mast height above deck) just isn't enough to matter.

Again, that's the maximum twist - assuming no tension in the forestay. Also, I'd disagree with the shock-loading argument for a couple of reasons: 1) I don't know how fast anyone else tacks, but even on a good day, I take a finite 10 seconds or so to tack. That's not a quick enough transfer of load to qualify as a shock. 2) Say I run the headsail up the starboard headstay (as I usually do - my snap-hanks open to starboard). I'm romping along on port tack, with the sail tight in and the starboard headstay sagging a little to starboard. The port headstay then is a little less tense perhaps, but balanced by the triangular tension-balancer I have fitted between the stays and the stemhead fitting. Now I decide to tack. I head up to port, the sail begins to luff and the tension unloads. The boat stands up again, and as the bow comes through the wind I hold my starboard sheet for maybe a second to help the bow around. I then drop the starboard sheet, come onto starboard tack, and sheet in hard and fast on the port genoa sheet, finishing up with a couple of strokes of winch handle if I haven't managed to trim it before the wind load comes on. The wind fills the sail and tensions... the starboard stay, because the sail is still hanked onto the same headstay! No shock loading there.

By contrast, when I hit a steep wake or fall off a wave, I have double the amount of metal resisting the mast's efforts to fall forwards and then backwards - now that is shock loading.

sorry, I'm a crusty, but at least I know it

BE

I love roller furlers, don't get me wrong... just not on my boat, and not when they're treated with the "fit and forget" mentality. I have enough maintenance tasks to do, without having to refurb a roller furler every season!

Last edited by Blue Eagle; 08-07-2007 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 08-07-2007
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BE,
Nice looking boat and a very nice rig. Is she a Ted Brewer design? What does the name Lan Ying mean? In two of your pictures is a sextant with a vernier instead of a micrometer. It looks reminiscent of an older Heath but not quite. Who made that sextant?

The only time I have had hanks jump was when I had some French ones with a trip device designed to open the hank when you hoisted a replacement sail on the same headstay. It was a nice idea but if a hank jumped you needed to lower both sails instead of just the former sail which would have been flying free of the headstay if everything went according to plan. It was simpler to just drop a sail and replace it instead of using the quick change feature of the French piston hanks.

You point out the twist from your backstay is negligible. I agree and would go even farther and say that there is no real twist at all. The attachment point for the backstays is at the center of the mast so even if the wire leads off to one side the mast is still being pulled from the center so no measurable twist is introduced into the mast. But I do disagree with you about the strength of the headstay system. Unlike the twin backstays the headstays shares only one attachment point. Both wires and their turnbuckles are attached to the diamond plate and then to the stemhead with a single pin if I understand the photo correctly. You could have 100 headstays but the system will still fail with the same strain by sheering the single clevis pin in the stemhead or breaking the stemhead fitting or truck. I think you need two entirely separate headstays to see any increase in the strength of the system.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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Old 08-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
. o O Now that's what I call hardware!

Y'know, I look at roller furlers and think to myself "That doesn't really look all that robust." Then I read about three (3) roller furler failures in just a few days here on Sailnet, and I'm thinkin' we'll either stick with the Tuff Luff system that came with our boat, or convert to a hanked-on sail. (Surveyor says that Tuff Luff system will be a pure PITA with one person up front to take the foresail down in even moderate air.) But that roller furler you showed us, Giu, that one looks like a piece of hardware a sailor could trust. 'Course, it's probably got a price to match .

Jim
Here is one photo I did not know I had..it shows the stem and wheel without the sail covering it.

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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2007
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Robert, you're scary! what a trainspotter! She is indeed a Ted Brewer - Douglas 32, but built here in Hong Kong by Cape Yachts (long since out of business)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartan34C View Post
Nice looking boat and a very nice rig. Is she a Ted Brewer design? What does the name Lan Ying mean? In two of your pictures is a sextant with a vernier instead of a micrometer. It looks reminiscent of an older Heath but not quite. Who made that sextant?
The sextant is a Heath "Hezzanith" from Circa 1930's

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Originally Posted by Tartan34C View Post
...But I do disagree with you about the strength of the headstay system. Unlike the twin backstays the headstays shares only one attachment point. Both wires and their turnbuckles are attached to the diamond plate and then to the stemhead with a single pin if I understand the photo correctly. You could have 100 headstays but the system will still fail with the same strain by sheering the single clevis pin in the stemhead or breaking the stemhead fitting or truck. I think you need two entirely separate headstays to see any increase in the strength of the system.
From the perspective you've outlined I agree. However, given that the clevis pin is 3/8" diameter and solid stainless, and the truck (by which I assume you mean the ridge on the stemhead fitting that the whole assembly mounts on) is similarly oversized, I suspect that the weak points of the system are the swaged end fittings, and the wire itself (which has plenty of scope for trapping salt water and then corroding out-of-sight). That's the basis for my assertion that 2 is better than one. I agree though that I do have a single-mode failure built in.

Lan Ying means Blue Eagle in the Chinese dialect spoken in Hong Kong and the neighbouring province of Guang Dong - hence the handle

B E
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Old 08-08-2007
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the neighbouring province of Guang Dong
Which I know very well as I worked 2 months at Shajiao !
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2007
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This thread is a perfect example of why I lurk here. I could have read a dozen books and never learn such a useful and clever way to solve that problem. Cheers Alex, well done. Thank you all for knowledge.
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