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post #11 of 45 Old 10-07-2007 Thread Starter
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In that situation, nothing. He was doomed. He had at least 15 knots behind him, looks like no motor, full sail, current, and obviously a poor sense of direction. The wave is too steep and strong there to expect to survive surfing it. Also, he is in shallow water, his keel may have hit bottom. What he was trying to do was make it between the surf and the tower. The space is too small for a sailboat in those conditions. He should have tried to beat out of there, but maybe he did and couldn't. Like I said, I have seen boats sail backwards! He was in a "hold on for your life" situation.
Looking at the first photo again, I say maybe try to turn to port and take the wave with the bow. The problem is that he may not have had any rudder control in the turbulent water of the break. When the water is foamy with air, you can be dead in the water.
When he kindly showed us his need for new antifouling, I noticed the rudder was hard over, so presumably the rudder stalled at some point?

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Also there is a difference between surfing down the face and going faster than the wave, and the wave breaking over the stern. He has the break behind him pushing him, and the "undertow" of the last wave pulling. You wouldn't have that action away from the shore.
Good point - I hadn't considered that. Would an engine have helped?

--Cameron
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post #12 of 45 Old 10-07-2007
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Hartley,
The Hs were damn near flying off Drummoyne on Saturday afternoon. Quite a blow.

It's easy to laugh at someone in this predicament but it is easy to get into such a fix particularly in semi protected waters where you wouldn't necessarily think a chart was required.

Last year , heading north from Sydney we came out through Barrenjoey heads and I decided, in my infinite wisdom, to go outside the reef that is off the north head. Took it a bit close and while we where never in any danger of hitting the reef itself we took one over the bow. White water bow to stern. Not a huge wave so no big deal, we rode through it wet but quite safe but it did tell me to be a little less cavalier when in waters that I thought I knew well.

What confuses me about those pics is why the skipper kept heading towards shore. From the pics it looks like he carried on past the point when it should have been obvious he was in strife. I'd like to see a video. Waves can build faster than you might think , I know.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett.
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post #13 of 45 Old 10-07-2007
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Theres a lot of ship traffic too. Those waves could have been from a ship. But if there are surfers out there in that area, it would generally mean that it is not an ideal place to be sailing at that time. The currents race around that tower, you can get sucked the opposite way you want to go. I have been out there in a row boat(12 person whaleboat) and gone nowhere for a long time.

Great men always have too much sail up. - Christopher Buckley


Vaya con Dios
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post #14 of 45 Old 10-07-2007
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I read that the reason that he went that way was that he could not get his pole (parrot beak) to release from the mast, or maybe the sheet, and so decided not to tack. He had sailed in that area before and nothing bad had happened, so even knowing the advisory against sailing through that gap, he figured he would enter under the bridge first and then deal with the headsail issue once he was in shadow.

This is one of the flavours of the feast of stupid...or rather neglectful, that he prepared.

Crossing a bar, put up the damned washboards...As a last resort, it is easy to put early in the list.

Problems with the pole, tack into the wind and fix it while well clear of the stuff that could destroy you.

PFD, it is not enough that it look like a PFD. This guy had bought his fve years earlier and had never checked it or opened it. Turns out the bottle was not screwed into the valve, so when he found himself in the water and pulled it...nothing at all happened.

But best and most relevant of all the rules of good sailing practice is...If you are in a keelboat, do not sail in places where you have to dodge SURFERS!!!!!!!!!!


Sasha

Last edited by Sasha_V; 10-07-2007 at 11:30 PM.
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post #15 of 45 Old 10-07-2007 Thread Starter
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Hartley,
The Hs were damn near flying off Drummoyne on Saturday afternoon. Quite a blow.
Glad to hear it! We've been out on Corio Bay in 35 knots with a nasty chop.. we learnt that day that the boat could handle the weather far better than we could!!

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It's easy to laugh at someone in this predicament but it is easy to get into such a fix particularly in semi protected waters where you wouldn't necessarily think a chart was required.
That's my concern. We sail in semi-protected waters all the time...

--Cameron
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post #16 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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Originally Posted by Sasha_V View Post
I read that the reason that he went that way was that he could not get his pole (parrot beak) to release from the mast, or maybe the sheet, and so decided not to tack. He had sailed in that area before and nothing bad had happened, so even knowing the advisory against sailing through that gap, he figured he would enter under the bridge first and then deal with the headsail issue once he was in shadow.

This is one of the flavours of the feast of stupid...or rather neglectful, that he prepared.

Crossing a bar, put up the damned washboards...As a last resort, it is easy to put early in the list.

Problems with the pole, tack into the wind and fix it while well clear of the stuff that could destroy you.

PFD, it is not enough that it look like a PFD. This guy had bought his fve years earlier and had never checked it or opened it. Turns out the bottle was not screwed into the valve, so when he found himself in the water and pulled it...nothing at all happened.

But best and most relevant of all the rules of good sailing practice is...If you are in a keelboat, do not sail in places where you have to dodge SURFERS!!!!!!!!!!


Sasha
Never having been to San Francisco (you know until I had a look at Google earth I always presumed the Golden Gate to be inside the harbour a'la the Sydney Harbour Bridge) I didn't realise that in calm weather you could follow their heading and get under the bridge. That first pylon is quite some distance from shore.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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post #17 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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Mr Hartley, I do believe it was you lot that I encountered last Sunday at Carrum. there were about a dozen of your boats, all set up for a lovely regatta...and it was blowing 35knots outside the river mouth, with huge breakers rolling up the channel....

And then, as you guys decided to make the best of it, potter up to the Aquatic Centre and back, and have a picnic...The storm surge arrived and flooded the carpark, bbq area, launch ramps etc.

It was a great day for all concerned!

For what it is worth, I was on the coast guard boat that was pottering about. I can tell you that you did not have the very worst day out there, in addition to the sodden wretches we towed in at sunset, the other coast guard boat, which lives in the marina further up Patterson River got a callout...and then found they couldn't go anywhere because all of the floodgates had been shut.


Hope your next gathering is more fun.

Sasha
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post #18 of 45 Old 10-08-2007 Thread Starter
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Mr Hartley, I do believe it was you lot that I encountered last Sunday at Carrum. there were about a dozen of your boats, all set up for a lovely regatta...and it was blowing 35knots outside the river mouth, with huge breakers rolling up the channel....
...

Hope your next gathering is more fun.

Sasha
Nope - not guilty your honor. We'd never get under the bridge. Instead we were at Quarterdeck Marine having a BBQ. Not silly enough to go out for a sail in that stuff

The incident I was referring to happened earlier this year during the Richard Hartley Memorial Race. Hopefully we'll get better weather next year.

BTW: We were down at Mornington a couple of weeks ago - 0-5 knts breeze, beautiful sunny skies, a school of dolphins playing of the bow as we drift along... That's where the photo in my avatar was taken.

Hope to see you on the water sometime. You guys do a great job!

--Cameron
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post #19 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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Cameron,
Having had a good look at the bridge on google earth it actually appears to me that they are outside. SFers would know more about this I guess. They are preparing to come under the bridge to enter SF Bay from the ocean side.
Would you take your boat that close to the shore , say off, Bells in a sou wester ? Mmm, didn't think so. Skipper must have been crazy.
Let fly the jib sheets, gybe and get the eff out of there. Ok, so that may well have shredded the headsail but rumour has it that a sail is a couple of buckazoids less than a new boat and/or a couple of funerals.
Cheers mate

ps - what does keep a Hartley TS upright ? No internal ballast correct ? Just crew weight ?

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

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― Terry Pratchett.

Last edited by tdw; 10-08-2007 at 12:26 AM.
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post #20 of 45 Old 10-08-2007 Thread Starter
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Cameron,
Having had a good look at the bridge on google earth it actually appears to me that they are outside. SFers would know more about this I guess. They are preparing to come under the bridge to enter SF Bay from the ocean side.
Would you take your boat that close to the shore , say off, Bells in a sou wester ? Mmm, didn't think so. Skipper must have been crazy.
Let fly the jib sheets, gybe and get the eff out of there. Ok, so that may well have shredded the headsail but rumour has it that a sail is a couple of buckazoids less than a new boat and/or a couple of funerals.
Cheers mate
No you wouldn't catch me off Bells in south-wester - there's bigger wrecks on that shore than my little TS - still, it's getting out and back through The Rip (and any other entrance to the Strait for that matter) that bothers me. I know it's no problem at slack tide and I've been out there in bigger boats, but you never know where you might end up sometimes, willingly or not, and if I ever do, I'll take your advice.

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ps - what does keep a Hartley TS upright ? No internal ballast correct ? Just crew weight ?
The centreplate has a fair bit of weight in it - enough for self righting if you remember to lock it down - but otherwise, yes, it's just bums on the high side.

--Cameron
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