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post #21 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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what does keep a Hartley TS upright ?
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Most of the Hartleys there arrived by trailer, some put their sticks up, others just puttered around on outboards. Most trailer sailors cruise under the bridge and then tie onto something inappropriate to get their masts up. Funny, one of the boats there could have been an identical twin to your avatar pic.


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post #22 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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Most will only encounter breaking waves inshore and in shallow water such as a bar, where waves slow steepen and then break. This is more likely wind against current.
It is quite different going through or surfing on waves which may have a bit of white water on top. With these it is best to take them on an angle, and go square down the face, as otherwise you run the risk of broaching.
Trying to cross breaking waves is quite different. If you have ever been in surf, or watched a surf rescue rib you only see them try to take it square on, both ways, indeed avoid it if possible until it has broken.
Crossing bars is dangerous. Generally you will be picking an area where the waves are not breaking ie it is deeper, and coming in at slack, or with the tide and wind. It is probably better to do it under motor and attempt to time it on a wave, as you would have more control.
You would not want to cross in breaking waves, unless you know the bar, have a powerful boat, are an expert, and probably are on a Coastguard rescue.
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post #23 of 45 Old 10-08-2007 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sasha_V View Post
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Most of the Hartleys there arrived by trailer, some put their sticks up, others just puttered around on outboards. Most trailer sailors cruise under the bridge and then tie onto something inappropriate to get their masts up. Funny, one of the boats there could have been an identical twin to your avatar pic.
Sasha
Cheeky! You've met the 16's by the sound of it - a nice bunch! Putting the mast up post-launching is something to be avoided in my books - unless you wanted an entry for the "bonehead" thread. And now - back to the topic..

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Most will only encounter breaking waves inshore and in shallow water such as a bar, where waves slow steepen and then break. This is more likely wind against current.
It is quite different going through or surfing on waves which may have a bit of white water on top. With these it is best to take them on an angle, and go square down the face, as otherwise you run the risk of broaching.
Trying to cross breaking waves is quite different. If you have ever been in surf, or watched a surf rescue rib you only see them try to take it square on, both ways, indeed avoid it if possible until it has broken.
Crossing bars is dangerous. Generally you will be picking an area where the waves are not breaking ie it is deeper, and coming in at slack, or with the tide and wind. It is probably better to do it under motor and attempt to time it on a wave, as you would have more control.
You would not want to cross in breaking waves, unless you know the bar, have a powerful boat, are an expert, and probably are on a Coastguard rescue.
One problem I have with this is that it is often not possible to see the waves breaking from off-shore - and before you know it, you're in deep wombat poo.

I have heard that it is best to try to ride the back of a wave in, but that's great for stinkpots with big engines and not always possible for a little TS.. Have you actually tried to come in on a wave? Must take quite a bit of sail control..

--Cameron
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post #24 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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I've gone under the south tower before (in about 20 knots of wind). There's plenty of room, it really depends on the swells and tide.
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post #25 of 45 Old 10-08-2007
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Those photos qualify as benign conditions at the Columbia River bar!

Stay in deep water. Those same seas would most likely not be breaking under the center span, certainly not as severely. Tide would influence as well. If forced to enter such waters, he'd have been well advised to deploy a drogue astern, batten down, and motor like hell. He'd have taken boarding seas but probably not pitchpoled or broached. Even without the motor he might have been able to maintain some directional stability, but it would be a close run thing.

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post #26 of 45 Old 10-08-2007 Thread Starter
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If forced to enter such waters, he'd have been well advised to deploy a drogue astern, batten down, and motor like hell. He'd have taken boarding seas but probably not pitchpoled or broached. Even without the motor he might have been able to maintain some directional stability, but it would be a close run thing.
It doesn't look like he put leeboards in and got swamped for his (lack of)trouble. Someone here suggested he might even have hit bottom.

Is it better to speed up to keep up with the waves or slow down (with a drogue) to keep from being pitchpoled??

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post #27 of 45 Old 10-09-2007
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Depends on hull shape and weight. For your boat, sitting everyone in the back and going surfing would work...For someone with a short heavy keel and a lot of weight aloft; Slowing down is definately the better idea.

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post #28 of 45 Old 10-09-2007
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I have a friend of mine who is a long standing member of the St. Francis Yacht Club in the Bay and he advised me that some sailors take the "surf ride" for fun. This guy just got in too close, was singlehanded and over sailed. The boat has been raised and the guy is still bay sailing and giving "luncheon talks" about his pitchpole experience. When all was said and done, he put himself there on purpose for an adrenelin rush. Bit much for me, I'll stick to knitting in 60 foot seas.

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post #29 of 45 Old 10-09-2007 Thread Starter
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Depends on hull shape and weight. For your boat, sitting everyone in the back and going surfing would work...For someone with a short heavy keel and a lot of weight aloft; Slowing down is definately the better idea.
Sasha
Thanks, Sasha - I'll keep that in mind the next time I go through the Rip (if ever! )

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post #30 of 45 Old 10-09-2007
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The problem arises when you cannot stay ahead of following seas, particularly breaking seas. It is extremely ardous to keep your helm and avoid broaching, especially in shallow water where they'll be breaking more frequently. If you deploy a drogue astern you can slow the boat down (desirable) as well as gain control by running the engine. Without the drogue, your rudder is of reduced effectiveness, perhaps bordering on zero as you are moving at roughly the same speed as the seas. That means that little water is flowing over the rudder, hence reduced turning moment. With the drogue deployed and the engine running you will throw water over the rudder imparting turning moment and slow the boat down.

“Scientists are people who build the Brooklyn Bridge and then buy it.”
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