Sheet winch position - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 38 Old 11-12-2007
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Winches? Fancy stuff... I don't have any... I just pull the lines and sheets by hand...

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post #32 of 38 Old 11-16-2007 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Diva27 View Post
Here's a radical idea: try living without winches entirely. How much load is there on the jib sheet, with the boat 18 feet long? The jib looks pretty high cut and there's not a huge amount of overlap. I raced a Shark here in Canada for a couple seasons, a narrow 24 foot keelboat with a fractional rig and large overlap on the genoa. To make it easier for my wife when casually daysailing, I rigged 2:1 purchase sheets, so we could forget about grinding winches. (Sheet dead-ended on lead block car, up to the clew, through a Harken swivel block, back to the lead block, then into the cockpit.) I found the system surprisingly efficient. Yes, you pull twice as much line, but the distances are small and you double your mechanical advantage.
I don't think there are any winches on a Melges 24. Maybe at the Hartley scale there might be a clever way to get around the pesky things, too.
I did a bit of research (well, a few phone calls anyway) and many of the Hartleys don't have winches either ..but I guess it depends on the wind conditions you sail in.

Out on Westernport the other week in typical-for-around-here-lately 20-30knts with a #2 reef and storm jib, I was bloody glad I had sheet winches. Would never have been able to get the jib on otherwise!!..

The weather seems to be getting better.. Anyone know of a set-up for removeable winches??

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
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post #33 of 38 Old 11-16-2007
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You just want to feel like you're on a bigger boat.
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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
I did a bit of research (well, a few phone calls anyway) and many of the Hartleys don't have winches either ..but I guess it depends on the wind conditions you sail in.

Out on Westernport the other week in typical-for-around-here-lately 20-30knts with a #2 reef and storm jib, I was bloody glad I had sheet winches. Would never have been able to get the jib on otherwise!!..

The weather seems to be getting better.. Anyone know of a set-up for removeable winches??

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post #34 of 38 Old 11-19-2007 Thread Starter
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You just want to feel like you're on a bigger boat.
Precisely. Hartley18 going on 40... That's me! I'd buy a bigger boat right now, only that would mean taking notice of all the other threads on this here Sailnet (engines, antifouling, etc., etc..)

FWIW, I'm going to move the winches directly aft to the front edge of the traveller. This way I can move the turning blocks aft and leave the sheeting arrangements as they are.

Apart from the cleating issues, the problem I've discovered with moving the winches outboard at the same place is that the winch handle fouls the mainsheet on a run/broad reach (traveller fully off), whereas if it's on the inboard edge of the cockpit seat it's only in the way on a close reach - which I can deal with, I think.

Thanks for all your help, guys. It's great to be able to run silly ideas past others in the World Sailing Fraternity rather than stuffing things up out of ignorance.

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
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post #35 of 38 Old 11-24-2007
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Hi, I have a Hartley 18 too..which I have to admit to not having sailed yet.. and it has winches mounted on the coamings which are wide. So I have read this discussion with interest. I will have to study the sheat angle.
My Hartley is very well built, and seems to have a lot of innovations which would probably keep it out of class racing. It has a ballasted keel, 1 inch steel with lead somehow bonded on. It also has a fully battened main..with sail slugs. I'm not sure whether it should have extra internal ballast as well as the keel. Have to see how it feels sailing I guess.
Do you have the regulation internal ballast?
The Hartleys do not seem to have kept the popularity in NZ that they seem to have in Oz. Ian
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post #36 of 38 Old 11-25-2007 Thread Starter
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Hi, I have a Hartley 18 too..which I have to admit to not having sailed yet.. and it has winches mounted on the coamings which are wide. So I have read this discussion with interest. I will have to study the sheat angle.
My Hartley is very well built, and seems to have a lot of innovations which would probably keep it out of class racing. It has a ballasted keel, 1 inch steel with lead somehow bonded on. It also has a fully battened main..with sail slugs. I'm not sure whether it should have extra internal ballast as well as the keel. Have to see how it feels sailing I guess.
Do you have the regulation internal ballast?
The Hartleys do not seem to have kept the popularity in NZ that they seem to have in Oz. Ian
Winches on the coaming are probably the most common set-up in the earlier designs and if it's anything like the boats here, your sheeting angle will be fine. My issue is that, for reasons best known to the builder decades ago, I don't have wide coamings like you do and it's not an option for me to fit them.

A fully-battened main is fine - many of the top racing boats here have them and allowable under the rules - and I don't think anyone would be too upset by your keel, so long as it was the correct dimensions. Download the lastest Measurement Form and see how your boat stacks up.

Internal Ballast: No, I don't have the regulation ballast and a few others in the club have pulled theirs out which is allowable if your keel and boat weight is above minimum (which, by the sound of it, yours is). I don't have the regulation buoyancy foam either - opps!!

Ian, do feel free to send us a photo of your boat. There aren't many from NZ, but the Hartley 18-21 Association would love to hear from you and help out in any way they can.

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
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post #37 of 38 Old 11-28-2007
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Hi Cameron, Thanks for that info and link. Some nice pics there.

So you are not worried about capsize with no ballast? Is that because you are mostly racing, and don't want the weight? and have support boats? How easy is it to capsize a Hartley 18.? Ian
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post #38 of 38 Old 11-28-2007 Thread Starter
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Hartley Stability

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Originally Posted by refuge55 View Post
Hi Cameron, Thanks for that info and link. Some nice pics there.

So you are not worried about capsize with no ballast? Is that because you are mostly racing, and don't want the weight? and have support boats? How easy is it to capsize a Hartley 18.? Ian
Capsize? No. Unlike the 16's, the 18's and 21's spend most of the time cruising - and our support boats are each other or the Coastguard - but, in general, Hartley's are fairly difficult to capsize. One of the guys in the Richard Hartley Memorial Race earlier this year did a chinese gybe under spinnaker that ended bottom upwards, but it took a series of stupid mistakes to do that.

There is a fair bit of righting moment in the centreplate and, so long as you don't go out in >30 knots and don't all sit on the lee side, it's fine. With any angle of heel up to being knocked flat, the boat will right itself so long as at that stage it's not full of water. Due to their hull shape, Hartley's need to be sailed fairly flat - they go sideways with the lee-rail under.

My biggest worry is not capsize but the lack of buoyancy if we got knocked down by a squall due (like a few others) to not having the regulation amount of foam installed... I must get around to doing that one day!

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"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
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