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  #1  
Old 11-07-2007
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For you ketch and yawl folks, a question...

I currently have a nylon mizzen staysail which is ok for a reach but not much else. I'm wanting to take further advantage of the rig by doing a couple of things.

A. Using a small Asymmetrical chute flown from the mizzen for offwind work.

B. Having a high cut Jib with either a wire luff or using a detachable mizzen forestay and hanking the jib on that for upwind work.

I figure to extend my Genoa tracks further aft and placing another pair of cars just aft the mizzen mast. This setup would only be used for long tacks because I'd have to douse everything for tacks.


Any thoughts on this?
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Old 11-07-2007
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I donít know the sailplan or who designed your boat so my comments are general in nature. Depending on the drift of the mizzen shrouds and or the configuration of the mizzen backstays itís possible to pull the mizzen down with too much sail area off the wind. Some designs donít have enough of a backstay to stand with much force applied to the mast. Of course because I donít know anything about your boat this is just idle speculation and has no foundation in fact as it applies to your boat.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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Never design a mast that is weaker then the boat
Never design a boat that is weaker then the mast

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Old 11-07-2007
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Okay, on the going upwind version, I'm not sure what you would gain with sail between main and mizzen. I'm the last person in the world to talk physics, but in my case (cutter rigged ketch) the further aft you go the more you have to sheet the sails inboard to take advantage of the wind curling around the forward sails. Even without a staysail, I find I have to sheet the mizzen in more amidship than the main. A sail between main and mizzen would really make that slot close up, I would imagine.
As for a mizzen chute, I'd love to see a picture. One thing I like about a ketch on a long passage is the ability to sail with double headsail (poled), and no main, with the mizzen up. Way easier to handle by yourself than a chute, and the mizzen helps control the rolling without blanketing the headsails.
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Old 11-07-2007
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Robert, my mizzen has split back stays of 1/4" wire through bronze turnbuckles.

Tareua, I've seen a sail called a mule for upwind mizzen work that's apparently flown from the main top to the mizzen top to the deck. It fills in the gap betwixt main and mizzen on a yawl and uses the slot effect between the main and mule. I've only seen two photos of this setup and was hoping somebody out here was flying such a setup.
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Old 11-08-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCobra View Post
Robert, my mizzen has split back stays of 1/4" wire through bronze turnbuckles.
To know how much force you can put on a mast you need to know the size of the mast, the height of the mast and the height of the attachment point of each stay and shroud. You also need to know where on the deck each stay and shroud is. That is to say how far from the step sideways and how far forward or aft of the step each chainplate is.

When you design a boat you work the problem backwards because you can calculate how stable the boat is and that tells you how much force can be put on a mast before the boat just falls over. Design a mast to hold that much force and it canít break because the boat falls over before the mast comes down. Or at least thatís the theory.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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Study the history of naval architecture and move forward knowing what didnít work before.

Donít waste time making the same old mistakes but instead make new ones and to insure your place in history be sure the mistakes are big ones.

Never design a mast that is weaker then the boat
Never design a boat that is weaker then the mast

Never listen to someone describe why your project will not work unless they can show you the broken pieces of their own version.
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Old 11-08-2007
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The rare time I've seen sails flown in front of a mizzen, I've just seen a mizzen chute,





or a mizzen "staysail" cut like a fat genoa with a really long foot.



or something quite close to a foredeck staysail:



Carried high, it's still a staysail, but with a different cut, and might be called a "fisherman's"


Last edited by Valiente; 11-08-2007 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007
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Thanks for the pics Val, that gives me a better idea of what I can do.

Robert, I'll take some pics of the mizzen for ya. It's 20' tall and the stick is a solid 4"X6" piece tapering slightly. It has uppers, lowers and spreaders that are probably 3' in length to each side.

Last edited by CharlieCobra; 11-08-2007 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007
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Charlie, I've found that if you've got an older boat, it pays to mooch around used bookstores or the Internet to find sail technique books from that particular era (which I guess in your case is the early '60s, right?). I have a 1973 cruiser-racer, and I found a wealth of information in a book called "Sail Power" by Wally Ross. It goes into great detail with the transition from CCA to IOR rules, and how sail choice, trim and strategies were affected by those changes. It's also the only book that told me how to fly some barely used "legacy" sails I had, like the genoa staysail, the "blooper" and the "tallboy" (yes, I have some obscure old sails in my garage loft!).

I'm sure some of these older books will have the information you seek.
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
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"tallboy"
Yes Val...you called me??
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Old 11-08-2007
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Oh, it's Mr. Spinnaker Pole Pants! Well, I'll have you know I don't bother with an anchor. I just stand on the bowsprit and unzip!
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