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  #21  
Old 09-10-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primerate84 View Post
The intent of your lawsuit should be to return the boat and get your money back. Then follow CD's advice.
thanks for the suggestion. We've reviewed that option at length and it has some practical drawbacks. We opted for a different approach with another strategy.

Unfortunately at the moment I can't provide details of the plan and the drawbacks and merits of the different approaches we considered. Hopefully I can say more in the not too distant future.
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbeer View Post
the appeal of the power sailor to us was the ability to quickly get where the wind is, sail around, and then get home fast too. That and the fact that we thought the center mounted outboard motor would be easier to use than an offset transom mounted one (like our Potter had) as well as lighter (for towing reasons), faster, easier and cheaper to maintain than an inboard diesel.

It all sounds good in theory :-)



By Benes do you mean Benetau? If so wish I could afford one. At least I haven't seen one I thought I could afford.

We strongly considered a Hunter 30 and a comparably sized Catalina before opting for the 26M. Yes, they're totally different boats. When we were looking at them we were trying to decide what it was we wanted. The larger boats were not trailerable, were quite a bit more $ and we'd have had to finance them, but they would fill some of what we were looking for. The 26M was trailerable (though their marketing literature about how easy it is to set up and take down is overblown), not as roomy, but cost around what we would have put up as a down payment on the bigger boat.




We're also considering going the boat club route. There is a place near us called freedom boat club which does have a Catalina. I think it is a 30 about 15 years old. They said it wasn't used much, but that was before gas prices went wild.

Fractional ownership was another thing we considered. We thought they cut the boat up too many ways and there wasn't really enough usage time for the $ in that deal.

We thought we did our homework last time but it's clear we didn't. The same approach which led us to be happy owners of a 19ft Potter unfortunately failed us for the Mac. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. We are probably stuck with the Mac for at least a little while longer but we'll try to use the time to better advantage this go around...

ttfn
I realize what you are saying.

My suggestion would be a trailerable Catalina like the 250. No - you cannot ski behind it. However, the fixed keel version is a nice little sailor, you can trailor it, and it is great for weekending on the hook. Incidentally, it has a seperate head, cooking/galley, and sleeping quarters so you can write it off as a second home on your taxes (if you do not elect to pay cash).

Behind that, hook up a nice tender with outboard of your choice. You can use that to explore or go fast. Our neighbor's kids actually kneeboard behind theirs.

Just my opinions - but get a boat that sails well and is fun to sail and you will care less how well she motors.

- CD
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  #23  
Old 09-10-2008
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I did get a chance to look at a Hunter Edge up close, it was touring the retailers here a month or so ago. It seemed to be better built than the Macgregor, at least based on the pictures you posted on your site.
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I realize what you are saying.

My suggestion would be a trailerable Catalina like the 250. No - you cannot ski behind it. However, the fixed keel version is a nice little sailor, you can trailor it, and it is great for weekending on the hook. Incidentally, it has a seperate head, cooking/galley, and sleeping quarters so you can write it off as a second home on your taxes (if you do not elect to pay cash).

Behind that, hook up a nice tender with outboard of your choice. You can use that to explore or go fast. Our neighbor's kids actually kneeboard behind theirs.

Just my opinions - but get a boat that sails well and is fun to sail and you will care less how well she motors.
Can I reference you to the IRS about that deduction :-)

We don't care about water skiing. My brother has a power boat on a small lake for that. Where we sail the often wind shifts from onshore to offshore and vice versa at certain times of the day. We never liked getting stuck out in the channel when the wind died down and the ferry was bearing down on us really fast.

We'll put the Catalina 250 on the list of things we look into.

I did have an idea as to how to center mount at least a small outboard behind a boat with a rudder+tiller, or rudder and wheel. If you've seen the Hunter Edge you'll see that the rudder is on a turntable immediately forward of the engine. So it occurred to me that it might work to put an engine immediately behind the rudder on some other boat.

The question then became how would you do this? The considerations are the weight itself, the distribution of weight so you don't rip the transom off, and raising and lowering the engine.

What I came up with on paper (everything works on paper :-) was a way to use a scissor jack, like the kind used to jack up cars to change tires. Preferably one with a 12 volt DC motor.

The scissor jack would get mounted on the transom so it sits above the rudder. if you have a tiller you'd have to make sure it didn't impede the movement of it. The general idea is that when you crank the jack up the engine raises up and moves forward, and when you crank it down the engine lowers down and shifts to the stern. It wouldn't have to lift it very high, just a few inches, enough to get the engine out of the water. You would almost certainly need to have a counterweight to balance out the weight of the engine.

If it worked I'd have a center mounted motor and might even be able to put
a larger one on depending on how the jig that the scissor jack was mounted on attached to the transom.

like I said, everything works great on paper...
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2008
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Be aware that the IRS deduction requires the galley and head be permanent fixtures....so a portapotty and camping stove don't cut it.
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2008
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The Mac and the Hunter motor sailor have their place at the table. The do make sense for some people.
I'm not a basher of each, they just wouldn't fit any of my little cubby holes as to what we'd be looking for in a boat.

As long as the owner/prospective owner knows the capabilties, and limitations of each, thats what matters.

All too often however, this isn't the case until the person has used the boats for awhile.
As the OP stated, it all looks good on paper. Hell, I look good against Sugar Ray Leonard on paper.
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Last edited by cardiacpaul; 09-10-2008 at 10:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2008
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I wouldn't worry too much about the offset mount of an outboard. We had a Precision 23 trailersailor before our current beauty, and the engine was offset mounted. We'd turn it ever so slightly to balance against the offset and then use the tiller to steer. There was no issue.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2008
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more on center vs offset mount motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by labatt View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about the offset mount of an outboard.
I was actually speaking from my own experiences, which are likely somewhat boat specific. As on example, our last boat, a Potter 19 (oh how we miss it now), had an offset 6.5HP Evinrude. The motor had a dead man throttle. The mount had a hinged bracket which could be pulled out of the water.

I always found it very uncomfortable to be reaching back to hold both the throttle with one hand and the tiller with the other. When I did this I usually ended up twisting my body, which aside from the discomfort of such a position, also left me with a blind spot of traffic, usually on my port side.

The handling was acceptable under mid to full speed/throttle though it would slew a little. It was much dicier at low speed because the motor's offset from the center line left the rudder almost, but not totally useless. Just useless enough that if you didn't tend it then it would foul you up. Assuming you had it in.

I think that possibly we have a larger concern wrt because we were (and at least for now still are) routinely trailering. I think that if you're mooring it is perhaps less of a concern. You have some room around you and are in deeper water.

Getting in and out of ramp areas means having the keel up, and frequently the rudder too if it is real low tide. Often the rudder wasn't even on the gudgeon or in the water when doing this. Getting the boat lined up right and cranked onto the trailer was tough due to the slew of the side mount motor. The over-hyped and unfulfilled promise of the MacGregor was that it addressed this.

As of now our opinion is that we traded one problem for another. the Mac owner's manual and other advice given me by folks more experienced is that in order to handle well at low speed you need full ballast, with keel and rudders down. My experience to date is that even in that config it is tough to handle at low speed. I also feel that (most likely due to the very large freeboard) it is *really* tough to handle when motoring in winds over 10 knots at any speed. Even in light wind, when coming into the dock, we've taken to trying to position ourselves upwind then get blown down onto the dock. Not an optimal situation....

Maybe folks will have comments or opinions, but my hunch is that part of the reason for this is the dual side rudders. My current (pardon the pun) theory is that at low speed the flow from the prop doesn't wash past the rudders and as a result doesn't generate as much turning force. Only the body of the engine serves to do this and the fore-to-aft length of it isn't much. Along this line of theorizing a side mount motor with a center rudder performs better because more wash pushes on the rudder, but its drawback is that it is off center and creates some slew. So the next conjecture is that a design like the Hunter Edge might, at least according to my theorizing, handle well because the turntable mounted single rudder is just forward of the center mounted engine so all the prop wash pushes against it and would create the most turning force possible, especially at low speeds.

OK, time for others to chime in whether my assessment of the interaction between rudder and prop wash is all washed up (I can hear the groans )

BTW The steering system on the Mac has a lot of slop in it. It feels like I'm driving my Dad's old Buick Electra or some other Detroit iron with mushy power steering. You can rock the wheel a couple of inches side to side with no change in throw on the rudder/engine. Are any of your boats like this, or is this another "feature" of my wonderful ride?
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  #29  
Old 09-16-2008
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mac26m mushy steering

I am puzzled by that also. Maybe there is some kind of adjustment one could make to tighten the steering. So far I am unable to find any. We have been enjoying the boat, though it sails differently then any boat I have ever had.
vic
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  #30  
Old 09-16-2008
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Hi Vic,

thanks for the feedback. At least now I know this is not specific to my boat. It had so many other defects when it was delivered it was hard to say for sure.

I'm only just now getting to look over the diagrams for the steering hardware and how it is attached. The steering appears to be a Telefex SH5210 with a Teleflex SSC13408 and a Teleflex SB39526.

If you're interested you can find a PDF of the manual for the helm and other parts at the Teleflex website (sorry I still can't post links here). Go to the teleflex homepage, click on support, then click on installation manuals and you'll see them listed there.

I also saw the "Pedestal Wheel Brake" aka "Poor Man's Autopilot" listed there. A certain dealer sells this for $49.50 (when they actually deliver it instead of ripping you off) but they don't list the part number. I just learned why. It's because the part (called a Torque Brake by Teleflex, part number 3953114P which but the installation instructions are still listed under the old part number 39531) has an MSRP of a little over $12. You can but it for that price from Blue Water Yachts of Seattle or I think possibly direct from Teleflex.

BTW Before anyone goes accusing me of being a shill for Blue Water Yachts I'll state in advance I'm not affiliated with them in any way. When my boat and trailer arrived in the unusable state it was in they saw a post I made on another website and went out of their way to look me up to help me even though there was nothing in it for them. I've bought a couple of parts from them since then and they shipped them fast and have been nice enough to answer a lot of questions from someone who didn't even buy a boat from them.

I never did get even the torque brake part itself or any refund of the $95 I paid for it installed. I am still thinking of putting one on my boat, but it will probably wait until next year.

cheers.
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