SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

SPAM shelf life?

7K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 ·
Many SailNetters have, no doubt, been missing our friend Sailslikethewind. Remember? That overzealous employee of Arthur W. Kelly's Kiwi Boat Works in Elizabeth, Colorado. Good detective work from Cardiacpaul smoked him out, and Mr. Kelly assured everyone it wouldn't happen again.

Well, dadgummit.

Cheers!:D
 
#5 ·
That's an invidious untruth. No one can prove there is any pork whatsoever in SPAM. Just as no one has ever seen a sailboat in Elizabeth, Colorado. Gotta give these guys props for persistance, don't ya? I mean, why restrict a public relations disaster to just one bulletin board?

Also, Freedom Boat Works makes the ugliest objects afloat since ... since the last night we ate Mexican food. If they actually make boats. Which no one can prove.

In fact, the OP on the Trailer Sailor board -- the shill himself -- claims he saw these boats at the Seattle Boat Show. An attendee didn't recall seeing five such awesome trailerables -- and indeed, they don't seem to be on the list of vendors. Hehehehe.
 
#6 ·
#7 ·
Spam will last a lifetime in the can

Yes; the secret ingredient, embalming fluid (The gel looking stuff) :eek: , allows Spam to have an indefinite shelf life.

My opinion. :D

The versatility of Spam is limitless! ;)
 

Attachments

#8 ·
Well...these sleaze bag trolls just move on to the next site when they are discovered. Based on the prior assurances from the owner to all of US that this was a rogue employee and it would not happen again...We can assume that the owner is now complicit in this and therefore no one should trust anything Freedom Boat Works says about anything including their boats.
The boating industry has enough problems without adding sleazebags.
Good work Bob!
 
#9 ·
Based on the prior assurances from the owner to all of US that this was a rogue employee and it would not happen again...We can assume that the owner is now complicit in this and therefore no one should trust anything Freedom Boat Works says about anything including their boats.
The boating industry has enough problems without adding sleazebags.
As we learned from Enron, this sort of rot tends to start at the top. You're right, Cam -- exactly six months later, under another name, another foray. We'd all love to see a new company pushing good, new sailboats at affordable prices; we all care about this industry and wish it to prosper. Gawds, don't we spend enough of our own money toward that end.:D But shifty companies employing deceptive sales tactics won't revitalize our sport. Solid products sold honestly might.
 
#10 ·
At least Hormel's SPAM is edible... :)
 
#11 ·
I have not gone to original post copied to here, BUT, I did see three sailboats by above manufacture at the seattle boat show. they were on trailers at the on water part of the show, NOT at the indoor show at qwest field.

While I did not get into the boats, the 240 looked like a potential rocket for its size, the 270 a nice cruiser style trailer sailer.

marty
 
#13 · (Edited)
Xort: *grin*

Indeed, Freedom Boat Works does have some prototypes on display at the SBS. This is good news. Not quite the same as an established supply stream, but it's better than Kiwi Boat Works ever managed. Hilariously, Art Kelly once started a thread on Sailing Anarchy, castigating Flying Tiger for falling behind orders and only delivering 50+ hulls. And how many hulls has Kiwi/FBW delivered, exactly? Mr. Kelly may find coordinating a supply chain in Europe (Croatia? Romania? Poland?) from Colorado is not so easy.

Odd that their boats range in SA/D ratios from 13 (!) to 35(!); indicates careful researching of models, racy vs. sedate characteristics. Hunter can rest easy: they're no longer the Ugliest Thing Afloat. Check it out.
(It's probably safe to say that I have no connection to FBW; if so, it has to rate as the most baroque piece of spamming in interweb history.:D )

Rather amusingly, they've taken the hint and purchased banner advertising on the Trailer Sailor board. Rather than trying to spam their way into our collective consciousness. Good on 'em. Probably costs about $7 a month. Maybe we can get them to underwrite SailNet?
 
#14 ·
your friend and mine, Arthur W. Kelly III

Hi folks,

I'm new to sailnet. I was going to email some of the people who outed Kelly trying to plug Kiwi Boat Works (now Freedom Boat Works) a while back but the system won't let me email until I've posted a few times. So I figured I'd just let you know that whatever encounters you've had with Mr. K will likely pale in comparison to mine.

I direct your attention to the web site I've called kellyhansonmarinesucks I apologize that I'm still too new to this forum to be allowed to post links so you'll have to add the www and com yourself

Please note that what is on this website is just the tip of the iceberg. The lawsuit is scheduled to be heard in a MA court on Sep 16. After the judge rules on it I should be able to share a lot more detail, since I will be offering what I have confidence will be very convincing proof (what Mr. K likes to call "slander") before a court of law as to the questionable nature of certain business practices.

In the meantime anyone with an interest in seeing Mr. K get his just deserts should check back. It may take a little bit but I guarantee you'll find it worth your while.

Jay

PS If you did business with Mr. K, especially with Kelly-Hanson Marine and have complaints regarding this please contact me. I'm starting to compile a list for reasons soon to be made known.
 
#15 ·
Hi folks,

I'm new to sailnet. I was going to email some of the people who outed Kelly trying to plug Kiwi Boat Works (now Freedom Boat Works) a while back but the system won't let me email until I've posted a few times. So I figured I'd just let you know that whatever encounters you've had with Mr. K will likely pale in comparison to mine.

I direct your attention to the web site I've called kellyhansonmarinesucks I apologize that I'm still too new to this forum to be allowed to post links so you'll have to add the www and com yourself

Please note that what is on this website is just the tip of the iceberg. The lawsuit is scheduled to be heard in a MA court on Sep 16. After the judge rules on it I should be able to share a lot more detail, since I will be offering what I have confidence will be very convincing proof (what Mr. K likes to call "slander") before a court of law as to the questionable nature of certain business practices.

In the meantime anyone with an interest in seeing Mr. K get his just deserts should check back. It may take a little bit but I guarantee you'll find it worth your while.

Jay

PS If you did business with Mr. K, especially with Kelly-Hanson Marine and have complaints regarding this please contact me. I'm starting to compile a list for reasons soon to be made known.
IN-CREDIBLE!

I went through your web site. I am shocked. Go get him, and other buyers be warned!!!

- CD
 
#16 ·
Thanks for the support

It's nice to see the moderators here have the integrity to provide their readers with information that can help them make informed choices before they buy.

I wish the shills at the MacGregor Sailors forum had that kind of integrity. If they did they wouldn't have locked the thread after my post there about KH (like they originally did), or deleted the entire thread (as they eventually did).

Part of the reason we were attracted to the 26M was because it seemed like everyone on that forum had nothing but great things to say about it. Little did we know it was sort of like a disneyland for MacGregor owners :)

On a sort of related note, we're trying to imagine our life after being a MacGregor owner. Someone I was recently talking to told me they have a 1976 Balboa 21 in good condition that the owner took a walk on rather than pay the overdue storage. They want $800 for it but that's without engine or trailer, which would probably run me $3500-4000 all told.

Other than a PDF of some pages from a really old owners manual I couldn't find a whole lot on the Balboa 21. Wondering if anyone else has any info.

Another side note:
I took a look at Hunter's newly introduced competitor to the 26M, the Edge (does U2 know they named it this? If so will they sue Hunter like they sued Negativeland???). I thought it was a pretty nice boat, but then what do I know I bought a MacGregor :). While it costs more $ than the 26M it seemed like Hunter paid more attention to quality than MacG did. I think when you actually tally up the options what appears to be a huge price difference narrows quite a bit, but the Edge is still more. It appears MacG is cutting back their production. Wonder if this is due to the economy, the competition, or both.

I'm hoping to get to take a test sail of the Hunter Edge later in the month and can report back after. I'm sure there's probably some bad rap out there about Hunter but hey, at least I know that the Hunter dealer that claims to have a dealership in MA actually does have one here....

Jay

PS Kelly-Hanson's inventory age was listing them as selling the Hunter Edge, but it doesn't say anything about that anymore. Wonder if Hunter knew?
 
#17 ·
Hold on...

If you want to sail, get a different boat. If you want to motor, get a different boat.

You should look at some of the Benes and Catalinas. There are also a lot of well made and older boats out there that would serve you well and are better investments.

I am not a Mac basher, nor a Hunter Basher. But as I have been on both, my opinion is that the hybrids fullfill neither role well and Hunter has done some things that shock me. I would also suggest you take a long gander at some of the many threads on Hunter quality and Mac quality. Ask Poopdeckpappy or others their thoughts.

You will find people gigging me here about Catalina... but they are just giving me a hard time. Catalina makes a good, solid boat for its intended purpose. I like many of the older benes too. I do not like the new Jeauneaus or Benes - but many other people do.

DO your research this time so you do not go from the frying pan to the fire. I am not trying to push you completely away from the Edge, just telling you my opinion and suggesting you ask around.

- CD
 
#19 ·
it sounded good in theory

If you want to sail, get a different boat. If you want to motor, get a different boat.
the appeal of the power sailor to us was the ability to quickly get where the wind is, sail around, and then get home fast too. That and the fact that we thought the center mounted outboard motor would be easier to use than an offset transom mounted one (like our Potter had) as well as lighter (for towing reasons), faster, easier and cheaper to maintain than an inboard diesel.

It all sounds good in theory :)

You should look at some of the Benes and Catalinas. There are also a lot of well made and older boats out there that would serve you well and are better investments.
By Benes do you mean Benetau? If so wish I could afford one. At least I haven't seen one I thought I could afford.

We strongly considered a Hunter 30 and a comparably sized Catalina before opting for the 26M. Yes, they're totally different boats. When we were looking at them we were trying to decide what it was we wanted. The larger boats were not trailerable, were quite a bit more $ and we'd have had to finance them, but they would fill some of what we were looking for. The 26M was trailerable (though their marketing literature about how easy it is to set up and take down is overblown), not as roomy, but cost around what we would have put up as a down payment on the bigger boat.

I would also suggest you take a long gander at some of the many threads on Hunter quality and Mac quality. Ask Poopdeckpappy or others their thoughts.

DO your research this time so you do not go from the frying pan to the fire. I am not trying to push you completely away from the Edge, just telling you my opinion and suggesting you ask around.
We're also considering going the boat club route. There is a place near us called freedom boat club which does have a Catalina. I think it is a 30 about 15 years old. They said it wasn't used much, but that was before gas prices went wild.

Fractional ownership was another thing we considered. We thought they cut the boat up too many ways and there wasn't really enough usage time for the $ in that deal.

We thought we did our homework last time but it's clear we didn't. The same approach which led us to be happy owners of a 19ft Potter unfortunately failed us for the Mac. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. We are probably stuck with the Mac for at least a little while longer but we'll try to use the time to better advantage this go around...

ttfn
 
#21 ·
thanks for the suggestion. We've reviewed that option at length and it has some practical drawbacks. We opted for a different approach with another strategy.

Unfortunately at the moment I can't provide details of the plan and the drawbacks and merits of the different approaches we considered. Hopefully I can say more in the not too distant future.
 
#20 ·
Well, this thread taught me two lessons, first, Mac 26's are garbage, I'm sorry. But I guess when you buy a 26' boat that costs the same as a 22' boat from a "quality" manufacturer (it's the same as a Catalina 22) I guess it can't possibly be anything other than crap. 2nd, always pick up a boat or inspect it in person. I think a lot of hassle could have been avoided if you went to pick up the boat, saw what they did to the poor thing, and drove home...Without the boat.
 
#25 ·
Be aware that the IRS deduction requires the galley and head be permanent fixtures....so a portapotty and camping stove don't cut it. :)
 
#26 · (Edited)
The Mac and the Hunter motor sailor have their place at the table. The do make sense for some people.
I'm not a basher of each, they just wouldn't fit any of my little cubby holes as to what we'd be looking for in a boat.

As long as the owner/prospective owner knows the capabilties, and limitations of each, thats what matters.

All too often however, this isn't the case until the person has used the boats for awhile.
As the OP stated, it all looks good on paper. Hell, I look good against Sugar Ray Leonard on paper.
 
#27 ·
I wouldn't worry too much about the offset mount of an outboard. We had a Precision 23 trailersailor before our current beauty, and the engine was offset mounted. We'd turn it ever so slightly to balance against the offset and then use the tiller to steer. There was no issue.
 
#28 ·
more on center vs offset mount motors

I wouldn't worry too much about the offset mount of an outboard.
I was actually speaking from my own experiences, which are likely somewhat boat specific. As on example, our last boat, a Potter 19 (oh how we miss it now), had an offset 6.5HP Evinrude. The motor had a dead man throttle. The mount had a hinged bracket which could be pulled out of the water.

I always found it very uncomfortable to be reaching back to hold both the throttle with one hand and the tiller with the other. When I did this I usually ended up twisting my body, which aside from the discomfort of such a position, also left me with a blind spot of traffic, usually on my port side.

The handling was acceptable under mid to full speed/throttle though it would slew a little. It was much dicier at low speed because the motor's offset from the center line left the rudder almost, but not totally useless. Just useless enough that if you didn't tend it then it would foul you up. Assuming you had it in.

I think that possibly we have a larger concern wrt because we were (and at least for now still are) routinely trailering. I think that if you're mooring it is perhaps less of a concern. You have some room around you and are in deeper water.

Getting in and out of ramp areas means having the keel up, and frequently the rudder too if it is real low tide. Often the rudder wasn't even on the gudgeon or in the water when doing this. Getting the boat lined up right and cranked onto the trailer was tough due to the slew of the side mount motor. The over-hyped and unfulfilled promise of the MacGregor was that it addressed this.

As of now our opinion is that we traded one problem for another. the Mac owner's manual and other advice given me by folks more experienced is that in order to handle well at low speed you need full ballast, with keel and rudders down. My experience to date is that even in that config it is tough to handle at low speed. I also feel that (most likely due to the very large freeboard) it is *really* tough to handle when motoring in winds over 10 knots at any speed. Even in light wind, when coming into the dock, we've taken to trying to position ourselves upwind then get blown down onto the dock. Not an optimal situation....

Maybe folks will have comments or opinions, but my hunch is that part of the reason for this is the dual side rudders. My current (pardon the pun) theory is that at low speed the flow from the prop doesn't wash past the rudders and as a result doesn't generate as much turning force. Only the body of the engine serves to do this and the fore-to-aft length of it isn't much. Along this line of theorizing a side mount motor with a center rudder performs better because more wash pushes on the rudder, but its drawback is that it is off center and creates some slew. So the next conjecture is that a design like the Hunter Edge might, at least according to my theorizing, handle well because the turntable mounted single rudder is just forward of the center mounted engine so all the prop wash pushes against it and would create the most turning force possible, especially at low speeds.

OK, time for others to chime in whether my assessment of the interaction between rudder and prop wash is all washed up (I can hear the groans :) )

BTW The steering system on the Mac has a lot of slop in it. It feels like I'm driving my Dad's old Buick Electra or some other Detroit iron with mushy power steering. You can rock the wheel a couple of inches side to side with no change in throw on the rudder/engine. Are any of your boats like this, or is this another "feature" of my wonderful ride?
 
#30 ·
Hi Vic,

thanks for the feedback. At least now I know this is not specific to my boat. It had so many other defects when it was delivered it was hard to say for sure.

I'm only just now getting to look over the diagrams for the steering hardware and how it is attached. The steering appears to be a Telefex SH5210 with a Teleflex SSC13408 and a Teleflex SB39526.

If you're interested you can find a PDF of the manual for the helm and other parts at the Teleflex website (sorry I still can't post links here). Go to the teleflex homepage, click on support, then click on installation manuals and you'll see them listed there.

I also saw the "Pedestal Wheel Brake" aka "Poor Man's Autopilot" listed there. A certain dealer sells this for $49.50 (when they actually deliver it instead of ripping you off) but they don't list the part number. I just learned why. It's because the part (called a Torque Brake by Teleflex, part number 3953114P which but the installation instructions are still listed under the old part number 39531) has an MSRP of a little over $12. You can but it for that price from Blue Water Yachts of Seattle or I think possibly direct from Teleflex.

BTW Before anyone goes accusing me of being a shill for Blue Water Yachts I'll state in advance I'm not affiliated with them in any way. When my boat and trailer arrived in the unusable state it was in they saw a post I made on another website and went out of their way to look me up to help me even though there was nothing in it for them. I've bought a couple of parts from them since then and they shipped them fast and have been nice enough to answer a lot of questions from someone who didn't even buy a boat from them.

I never did get even the torque brake part itself or any refund of the $95 I paid for it installed. I am still thinking of putting one on my boat, but it will probably wait until next year.

cheers.
 
#31 ·
speaking of shills

anyone on this forum have any experience with the MacDisneyland known as MacGregor Sailors, where everyone loves their MacGregor and the dealer they bought it from???

Besides it being the only power-sail hybrid, one of the reasons we bought the 26M was because when we went to that forum we mostly saw people gushing over it. We didn't know at the time that the forum is pretty much composed of Stepford Wives....

Since then we've learned (the hard way) that if you post any complaints (even valid ones based in fact) about dealers that advertise there they will take it down. If you post a complaint that they took your valid complaint down they'll take that down too and then lock you out of the website. It turns out that in addition to the advertising revenue the owner of the forum gets from certain dealers (in which the business relationship is obvious owing to the fact that it is via advertising) the owner of the forum has certain other less than conspicuously disclosed financial relationships with at least one of these dealers.

While it is a privately owned forum, they blur the line between public and private. A lot of the content (like the forum discussions) can be viewed by people who haven't registered as members of the site. In that regard it is not a "private" discussion group as a private forum would only be open to individuals who have registered. So by "moderating" the forum in such a way as to remove any negative information publicly viewable about the MacGregor, while not conspicuously disclosing their financial relationship, the forum's owners create the appearance that the information on the site is unbiased.

I was wondering if there are any other individuals that are dissatisfied with the MacGregor they bought and/or the dealer they bought it from who may have gotten a false impression of them based on viewing this forum.

ttfn
 
#33 ·
turd disposal



Even though we don't yet know what we want to buy we're pretty much convinced we want to unload this 26M.

This brings up a question about how to do this.

The boat arrived with defects. We've put $ into fixing them and the boat is now usable and no longer a fire hazard. We don't like it and we've only owned it for a little over 3 months.

Unlike the slime we bought it from, we're honest, ethical people. My wife and I both take the oath she took to uphold the law (when she was sworn in as a lawyer) seriously (imagine that :) and we don't want to sell the boat under false premises or have a potential buyer feel we've misrepresented it. Besides, unlike the tool from Elizabeth, CO we know that people can just google us up and find out the history on this "turd" as you put it.

Just because we don't like the boat doesn't mean someone else might not. We've actually made a few improvements on it, and if I don't say so myself I do good work (I know my limits and stick to stuff I know and do well).

So any suggestions as to how to go about selling something you're not happy with while not taking an incredible bath on the price of it? It is basically a brand new boat after all...

thanks
 
#34 ·
Be honest about why you are selling it to a point... like you want a bigger boat is a good reason...that doesn't have to demean the qualities of the existing boat.
 
#35 ·
"So any suggestions as to how to go about selling something you're not happy with while not taking an incredible bath on the price of it? It is basically a brand new boat after all..."

I don't think you can do it. You made a mistake and now either have to PAY for that mistake in hard cash loss...or convince someone else to make the same mistake and take the hit instead. Have a broker take it in trade on a new boat and take your loss.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top