Boatyard/Boater Contract

[chucklesR]

A couple of years ago I changed my oil on my Hunter (previous boat) for the first time. I left too much in, the inevitable frothing occured during sea trails and I had the RPM run-a-way problem, blue clouds of oil smoke etc.
Being a newby, I got towed back to my slip and spent four precious weeks of summer sitting there waiting for a certified marine mechanic from one of the many local services to finally meander to my boat.
He heard my story (3 minutes), started my engine, put it to full RPM, let it run there for 5 minutes of surging at the dock lines; and shut it down. Then he told me it would be fine and spent the next 5 minutes filling in his paperwork for the bill where I was charged for 2.5 hours of service. I'm ten minutes drive from their office. By no stretch of any imagination was it two hours of service. There was a additonal charge for 'off site' that I assumed was his compensation for mileage anyway. The 10 minutes (I sh@t you not, 10 minutes, was 350 bucks). He didn't even open the engine cover or look below decks, he had never left the cockpit of the boat.

I objected, he pointed out what a mechanics lien was. I pulled out my cell phone, took a picture of the bill and asked him if he knew what a timestamped picture taken at 9:15am showing a departure time of 11am would like like in court? My card trumped his card

I then blew two hours of his time getting a guided tour of my Yanmar, asking questions, making him change my fuel filters, belts and such. I told him no way I was signing anything or paying anything outside of court judgements unless he actually provided two hours of on site work. I also later reported to BBB, and called his boss. The company is still in business, and likely he still works there.
Now I do my own work on my diesel.
Sometimes you have to actually play the cards you are dealt, sometimes you can work them

[knothead]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

JiffyLube-

Most of the time, when you're supplying the materials, you make a profit on the materials as well, contributing to the net income the job brings in. If he's doing a rigging job and they supply the 200' of wire for the rigging, he's lost the income on supplying the wire, yet they expect him to charge the same price for doing the job—not really reasonable. Also, when the customer supplies the parts, sometimes the parts they supply aren't the right spec, but they'll generally insist they be used...and then if the work fails early due to bad material supplied, who do you think gets blamed for it... never mind who supplied the faulty materials.

Exactly. Sorry, again I didn't make myself very clear.
When I use my own wire, (which is on a spool), I normally charge a flat fee for swaging. I don't charge an hourly rate.

In the case I was referring to, the customer arrived with a 200 foot coil of 3/8" 1x19 and wanted me to make one upper shroud. If you have ever dealt with a 2 or 3 foot diameter coil of 3/8" 1x19 wire, 200 feet long, You will understand why it took almost 3/4 of an hour.

While I don't charge any more than any of my competitors for materials, and actually less than some, I do make a profit on the materials that I sell.
I suppose it the same for plumbers or electricians. They would buy their materials wholesale and then resell for a reasonable profit.

Customers should be sensitive to the fact that small businesses rely on the income from sales at least as much as the income from labor.

And thank you SD. I don't think that the average person understands how much one opens themselves up for blame when they work for someone else. Whether it just bad-mouthing, reports to the BBB or actual lawsuits, it's not easy. In 12 years, I doubt that Jesus wouldn't have p!$$ed a few people off.

I think I am starting to sound like a whiner. Not really where I wanted to go with this thread.

Originally Posted by chucklesR

A couple of years ago I changed my oil on my Hunter (previous boat) for the first time. I left too much in, the inevitable frothing occured during sea trails and I had the RPM run-a-way problem, blue clouds of oil smoke etc.
Being a newby, I got towed back to my slip and spent four precious weeks of summer sitting there waiting for a certified marine mechanic from one of the many local services to finally meander to my boat.
He heard my story (3 minutes), started my engine, put it to full RPM, let it run there for 5 minutes of surging at the dock lines; and shut it down. Then he told me it would be fine and spent the next 5 minutes filling in his paperwork for the bill where I was charged for 2.5 hours of service. I'm ten minutes drive from their office. By no stretch of any imagination was it two hours of service. There was a additonal charge for 'off site' that I assumed was his compensation for mileage anyway. The 10 minutes (I sh@t you not, 10 minutes, was 350 bucks). He didn't even open the engine cover or look below decks, he had never left the cockpit of the boat.

I objected, he pointed out what a mechanics lien was. I pulled out my cell phone, took a picture of the bill and asked him if he knew what a timestamped picture taken at 9:15am showing a departure time of 11am would like like in court? My card trumped his card

I then blew two hours of his time getting a guided tour of my Yanmar, asking questions, making him change my fuel filters, belts and such. I told him no way I was signing anything or paying anything outside of court judgements unless he actually provided two hours of on site work. I also later reported to BBB, and called his boss. The company is still in business, and likely he still works there.
Now I do my own work on my diesel.
Sometimes you have to actually play the cards you are dealt, sometimes you can work them

This is where I was going with this thread. It seems to me that reasonable people should be able to avoid these kinds of situations. We know they happen, how can we prevent them.
Perhaps some sort of checklist of questions that people make sure they ask and get answers to.

[sailingdog]

Well, two years ago, at the end of the season, I was in the hospital and couldn't winterize my boat.... The yard hauled her out for me, and I called up the marine services company that had an office at my marina and asked them to do the following:

Winterize the 20 HP outboard
Winterize the freshwater system—two sinks, head, holding tank
Scribe a new waterline so I could re-paint the hull the following spring

We agreed on a price after discussing what I wanted done. When I went to the boat, after getting out of the hospital, I found that they had done the following:

Not scribed a new water line...and when asked about it, I was told that he said he was only going to do that if he was going to be painting the bottom in the spring. Not what we had agreed to.

He had winterized the freshwater system and engine.

He had also removed the two small AGM starting batteries I have for "winter maintenance", even though I had not requested this. When I asked where my batteries were, he told me that he had removed them for winter maintenance and that they'd send me a bill for it in the spring. I requested he replace the batteries, since I had not asked him to remove or maintain the batteries... What was really laughable was he had missed the two wet-cell T105 golf cart batteries, which really do require maintenance over the winter.

The following week, when I went back to the marina, I found that he had left the boat unlocked, and the batteries weren't reconnected to the electrical system. When I asked why my batteries weren't reconnected, he said, "Oh, we must have forgotten to do that, it isn't a big deal and only takes a minute or so." Well, these batteries have a lot of connections, and re-connecting them and strapping the battery boxes down takes about 10 minutes to do properly. Fortunately, this spring, when I came to the marina, I found he had been kicked to the curb. Too many customer complaints.

BTW, if you're in Massachusetts, don't use Kelley Marine Services out of Wareham, because John Kelley, the owner, is a liar and a swine, and can't be trusted any further than you can throw an 8D battery. He's also double-billed customers, charged for work not requested or performed in some cases, and basically is one of the most unethical people I've ever met. He's also got a yacht brokerage service.

Another contractor to avoid is Peter Kennedy, of Peter Kennedy Yacht Services, out of Annapolis, MD. His company screwed up the electrical system on my boat pretty badly when I had the boat commissioned. I've ended up basically re-doing 95% of what he had done. I've written about that on my blog.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

Well, two years ago, at the end of the season, I was in the hospital and couldn't winterize my boat.... The yard hauled her out for me, and I called up the marine services company that had an office at my marina and asked them to do the following:

Winterize the 20 HP outboard
Winterize the freshwater system—two sinks, head, holding tank
Scribe a new waterline so I could re-paint the hull the following spring

We agreed on a price after discussing what I wanted done. When I went to the boat, after getting out of the hospital, I found that they had done the following:

Not scribed a new water line...and when asked about it, I was told that he said he was only going to do that if he was going to be painting the bottom in the spring. Not what we had agreed to.

He had winterized the freshwater system and engine.

He had also removed the two small AGM starting batteries I have for "winter maintenance", even though I had not requested this. When I asked where my batteries were, he told me that he had removed them for winter maintenance and that they'd send me a bill for it in the spring. I requested he replace the batteries, since I had not asked him to remove or maintain the batteries... What was really laughable was he had missed the two wet-cell T105 golf cart batteries, which really do require maintenance over the winter.

The following week, when I went back to the marina, I found that he had left the boat unlocked, and the batteries weren't reconnected to the electrical system. When I asked why my batteries weren't reconnected, he said, "Oh, we must have forgotten to do that, it isn't a big deal and only takes a minute or so." Well, these batteries have a lot of connections, and re-connecting them and strapping the battery boxes down takes about 10 minutes to do properly. Fortunately, this spring, when I came to the marina, I found he had been kicked to the curb. Too many customer complaints.

BTW, if you're in Massachusetts, don't use Kelley Marine Services out of Wareham, because John Kelley, the owner, is a liar and a swine, and can't be trusted any further than you can throw an 8D battery. He's also double-billed customers, charged for work not requested or performed in some cases, and basically is one of the most unethical people I've ever met. He's also got a yacht brokerage service.

Another contractor to avoid is Peter Kennedy, of Peter Kennedy Yacht Services, out of Annapolis, MD. His company screwed up the electrical system on my boat pretty badly when I had the boat commissioned. I've ended up basically re-doing 95% of what he had done. I've written about that on my blog.

OK, how could this have been avoided? You mention that you called the marine services company. Perhaps that should have been only the first step.
Maybe a next step in the right direction would be to always have something in writing. Even if it is just faxed back and forth a couple of times, a clearly stated written agreement signed by both parties may go a long way in avoiding misunderstandings.
I know it would never stand up in court. It might help though.

[sailingdog]

Yes, but when you're in the hospital, fax machine access is a bit difficult , especially when you're in the cardiac care unit, with remote telemetry hooked up. Wasn't my heart fortunately...but still. Also, for the relatively low dollar amount of the work involved, less than $300, I didn't think that it was necessary, since some people are men of honor and believe their word is their bond... not the case with Mr. Kelley.

Originally Posted by knothead

OK, how could this have been avoided? You mention that you called the marine services company. Perhaps that should have been only the first step.
Maybe a next step in the right direction would be to always have something in writing. Even if it is just faxed back and forth a couple of times, a clearly stated written agreement signed by both parties may go a long way in avoiding misunderstandings.
I know it would never stand up in court. It might help though.

[therapy23]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

Another contractor to avoid is Peter Kennedy, of Peter Kennedy Yacht Services, out of Annapolis, MD. His company screwed up the electrical system on my boat pretty badly when I had the boat commissioned. I've ended up basically re-doing 95% of what he had done. I've written about that on my blog.

Where is your blog on that?

[JiffyLube]

Originally Posted by labatt

I always love the conversation of time and materials vs. value based pricing. I much prefer fixed fee value based pricing. I can understand being upset for being billed 2 hours for less than 15 minutes of time. On the other hand, what if the person told you that they've done this a million times before, came with many references, would back up the workmanship if there was an issue (yeah, I know), and would charge you $250 for the first transducer and $xxx for each additional? Would you feel better then? My guess is that this is what they effectively did, they just didn't tell you in advance.

Consider this - the first time you do something, it takes you a while - say 4 hours - and you're not very good at it. Now you do it 20 more times and have it down to 2 hours. You do it 200 more times and it takes 11 minutes. Isn't the experience now more valuable than the 11 minutes of time? Why should you get paid for only 11 minutes when what you are really offering is the value of your experience? It's because you have that experience that it only takes 11 minutes and is done well.

We hit this all the time in IT Consulting. We usually charge by the business value of the service and our experience. If people want to pay by the hour, we feel they don't completely understand the value of what we're doing to their organization. We'll do it, but we'll have minimum charges and we won't cap the hours.

And that's one to grow on

labatt, what you said was right on the money. The very first tile job I did in a housing track situation took me 10 hours to complete, and I was getting paid $25.00 per completed tub labor only (this was back in mid 70s). It took me a few more days to be able to do two tubs a day, and I made $50.00 that day. A week later I made to three a day, and another week later I made it to 4!...and these are all 'long' days. After I did 4 I hired a helper, but now I would have to do 6 a day to pay for the helper...I made $100 and the helper got $50.00. After we worked together for awhile we were able to get 6 tubs done in a day, and leave the job after 8 hours. Some weeks later we could do 6 a day, and be off work in 6 hours...now we're starting to make money!

If someone hires me now to a single tub, I'm sure not going to do it for $50.00 an hour for two people, cause it will only take us an hour to do it...and then what do we do for the rest of the day? I'll charge an 8 hour day for two people, and no one will ever complain.

[sailingdog]

Therapy-

See the thread I started here.

[JiffyLube]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

JiffyLube-

Most of the time, when you're supplying the materials, you make a profit on the materials as well, contributing to the net income the job brings in. If he's doing a rigging job and they supply the 200' of wire for the rigging, he's lost the income on supplying the wire, yet they expect him to charge the same price for doing the job—not really reasonable. Also, when the customer supplies the parts, sometimes the parts they supply aren't the right spec, but they'll generally insist they be used...and then if the work fails early due to bad material supplied, who do you think gets blamed for it... never mind who supplied the faulty materials.

True, when a contractor is supplying materials, there is a small profit margin added for the materials...but not much. If the bid given includes labor and materials, then there will be profit on the labor and the materials...but most of the profit is on labor...at least it is in my case. Lets say I bid a job for $500.00 labor and materials (profit included), with labor at $400.00, and materials at $100.00. The owner says to me they 'he will buy the materials if I do it for the same price' ($500.00), I say OK to that! I have now made an extra $100.00. If the owner says he will buy the materials, and he just wants me to charge him for the labor, I'll do that too...I'm still making money. If he wants to supply the materials I don't care, as long as he gets the materials I tell him to get. If he wants to cheap out on materials after I told him not to, then that's his business, but I'll have him sign me off on the materials being used. If there is an issue later on quality of material it's on him, and not me, because I warned him and documented this.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by JiffyLube

labatt, what you said was right on the money. The very first tile job I did in a housing track situation took me 10 hours to complete, and I was getting paid $25.00 per completed tub labor only (this was back in mid 70s). It took me a few more days to be able to do two tubs a day, and I made $50.00 that day. A week later I made to three a day, and another week later I made it to 4!...and these are all 'long' days. After I did 4 I hired a helper, but now I would have to do 6 a day to pay for the helper...I made $100 and the helper got $50.00. After we worked together for awhile we were able to get 6 tubs done in a day, and leave the job after 8 hours. Some weeks later we could do 6 a day, and be off work in 6 hours...now we're starting to make money!

If someone hires me now to a single tub, I'm sure not going to do it for $50.00 an hour for two people, cause it will only take us an hour to do it...and then what do we do for the rest of the day? I'll charge an 8 hour day for two people, and no one will ever complain.

I've spent many hours wondering about this. As one's skills increase and they learn tricks of the trade and shortcuts they accomplish more, accomplish it better and in a shorter period of time. Should they institute a flat fee for the job or increase their hourly rate as the years pass?
I've done the latter.