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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008
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I did some digging and SOLAS '74 Chapter III refers to 500 tons... but as Mr Wombat points out, there's a focus on "passenger carrying".

I hear what you're saying SD, and okay it may not apply to recreational vessels (yet!), but the bureaucrats are more hard-nosed than that.

For all the reasons you stated, these changes apply to all large passenger-carrying charter vessels including superyachts (the sailing kind) (remeber the J-Class?) and replica ships like "HMS Endeavour", "HMS Rose" and countless other examples of sailing history.

I'd love to be able to take my kids for a spin on an old square-rigger, telling them tales about the old ways and hearing the slap of canvas in the rigging - wouldn't you??? It just isn't the same if the thing is permanently tied up as a floating museam piece.. and yet that is what the world wants.

If it carries passengers and leaves port: "Only chrome and fire-retardant plastic please, oh, and mind the sprinkler system on the upper deck!" ....no thanks - I'll stay home and watch it on TV.

I think they call it "Progress"!..
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Last edited by Hartley18 : 05-08-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 05-08-2008
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From
Transport Canada - Transports Canada

The Marine Transportation Security Regulations (MTSR) applies to:
“SOLAS ship” means a vessel that
  1. is 500 tons gross tonnage or more or is carrying more than 12 passengers; and
  2. is engaged on a voyage from a port in one country to a port in another country other than a voyage solely on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River as far seaward as a straight line drawn from Cap des Rosiers to West Point, Anticosti Island, and from Anticosti Island to the north shore of the St. Lawrence River along the meridian of longitude sixty-three degrees west.
and
“Non SOLAS ship” means a vessel that is not a SOLAS ship, is engaged on a voyage from a port in one country to a port in another country and
  1. is more than 100 tons gross tonnage, other than a towing vessel;
  2. carries more than 12 passengers;or
  3. is a towing vessel engaged in towing a barge astern or alongside or pushing ahead, if the barge is carrying certain dangerous cargoes.
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Old 05-08-2008
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Thanks, TD

Shame about the HMB Endeavour then (and others like her)... at 550 tonnes she doesn't quite make it.

So as long as charter companies limit passenger numbers to less than 12, everything should be okay? Maybe?? History in the destroying, huh?
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Old 05-09-2008
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Before we all get too jacked up about what, like the QE2, are basically a bunch of worn out ships that have long since exceeded their designed for economic life it might be good to reflect upon how SOLAS and other maritime safety legislation evolved to this point.

Most safety requirements as well as construction requirements have grown out of maritime disasters. US built ships have, since WWII, looked decidedly institutional within their accomodations compared to many foreign built ships and that can mostly be ascribed to more stringent building requirements. For many years all internal bulkheads had to be Class A bulkheads which meant that they had to be able to withstand flame, of a temperature I forget, for one hour. Pretty much rules out the use of wood. Contrast that with the the ships that Carnival Cruise Lines started out with. They were old, sometimes very old, ships with interior bulkheads made of little more than composite board. A fire on board one of them would have almost certainly resulted in massive loss of life. I spent the better part of a decade encouraging friends to not take a cruise on such a ship.

The first article makes the point that the QE2 has made much of her living plying the North Atlantic. Most non-tankers are built on the basis of a twenty year economic life. I'd rather not be on board when the QE2 suffers structural failure in the winter North Atlantic.

The old Queen Mary resides alongside in Long Beach, CA and that's right where she belongs. You'd have to be very foolish to think that she is suitable for sea duty based soley on the fact that she spent so many years at sea. The answer to those ships not preserved in such fashion is the photograph, not endangering innocent lives. SOLAS exists because you as a consumer don't have the foggiest notion of what makes for a safe ship. I've sailed on both safe and manifestly unsafe ships, some of the latter actually owned by the US government (ex-fleet oilers) and 25 years is plenty long enough a lifespan for a ship in commercial service. Naval vessels spend not nearly the amount of time at sea and are maintained generally better than commercial ships.

I'll miss many of them as much as the next guy but it's the right thing to do. As sailors it might be easiest to equate their condition to those boats that are populary raced and raced hard. Is that the boat you want to own? Likewise, would you like to take a cruise on a ship that had been granfathered and so was not required to have radar? Just a hypothetical example.

And there are some ships that may be in decent condition but not really worth doing all of the upgrades on. Any of us is free to buy one of them and drop a few million into her. If Cam ever sells his Tayana he'll probably be in a position to buy two or three. (g)
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Old 05-09-2008
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I take your point, Sway, but the thing that grates on me is the unmerciful, broad-brush, approach that is being taken here:

You can make a J-class out of steel, but how do you get a replica square-rigger up to SOLAS requirements? Answer: You can't.

What do you do with the Guiness Book of Record's "world's oldest active passenger vessel"? Answer: Send it to the ship-breakers..

It would be just nice to see some loop-hole in SOLAS 2010 where craft with a reason for living could keep living and not be killed off with the rest of the junk-heaps on the world's oceans.

...my 5c worth.
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Old 05-09-2008
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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Thanks, TD

Shame about the HMB Endeavour then (and others like her)... at 550 tonnes she doesn't quite make it.

So as long as charter companies limit passenger numbers to less than 12, everything should be okay? Maybe?? History in the destroying, huh?
Cameron,
I really wouldn't get too upset until you see the new regs in operation. Just as the old Delta Queen in the US has been running under an exemption for donkey's years I wouldn't be surprised if something is worked out for the old square riggers.

And if they don't work something out we will set Sway onto them. They'll soon know what inflammatory really is and by the time he's finished boring the crap out of the poor bastards they will be approving passenger carrying wombats, inflammable or not.

(Wombat over and out, still putting up with Sway. )
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Old 05-09-2008
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The loophole is making such historical preservationist icons.. much like historical homes etc... insurance riders will increase.. but... for those the public have a pension for .. who knows..

Sadly, it is what is being done because it is the right thing to do...if such vessels are restricted merely for tourist duties in a described locale.. I see reason in bending the rules... But - and I know this will filter to out recreational boats one day - considering these are vessels that have been part of the era of why the rules are changing... limiting their areas of operation and stiffening the safety inspections - I agree with.... but allowing sub par "get the money out of it you can regardless of losses" mentality I do not subscribe to...
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Old 05-09-2008
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The loophole is making such historical preservationist icons.. much like historical homes etc... insurance riders will increase.. but... for those the public have a pension for .. who knows..

Sadly, it is what is being done because it is the right thing to do...if such vessels are restricted merely for tourist duties in a described locale.. I see reason in bending the rules... But - and I know this will filter to out recreational boats one day - considering these are vessels that have been part of the era of why the rules are changing... limiting their areas of operation and stiffening the safety inspections - I agree with.... but allowing sub par "get the money out of it you can regardless of losses" mentality I do not subscribe to...

Heartily agree regards large commercial shipping but small craft ? Nope. If people want to take an unsound thing out to sea and get themselves killed then they should be allowed to do so provided that no one else is required, even if they are members of the armed forces or paid crew on any other ship to go to their assistance.

I do recall a few years back when that dickwad Bullimore got himself all upsidedownish and somewhat bereft of mast and keel off the southern coast of OZ. There was an enormous hue and cry when the RAN went to rescue him. Press was full of a load of nonsense about putting sailors lives at risk blah de blah de blah but what did the sailors have to say about it ? Good exercise , is what they had to say about it is what. They all thought Bullimore was a prat but the rescue was better than sitting in port playing with their twinkies. Oh yes, and to hell with what it cost. You cannot buy that kind of experience.

Look at the whacko Reid and his 1000 Days of Wanking. By any measure he should not have been allowed to leave port yet here he is wallowing around in the South Pacific a year later.

Old square riggers will keep on sailing around the world and occasionally sink. So what. Oh, don't get me wrong I don't want to be on one when it happens but if you do go out on one of those things you should do so knowing it might kill you.

We need to be damn careful that we don't all end up living our lives encased in cotton wool.
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Old 05-09-2008
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Wobbly manages to make a semi-coherent point not without validity. It's one thing to embark upon a vessel where you're presented with a half dozen waiver forms to sign that signify your knowlege that the thing is a mostly floating firetrap, and quite another to board her naively thinking that one is on board a ship with the finest in safety standards.

There is a difference. One of my classmates walked away from the Sea Witch-Esso Brussels allision in lower NY Harbor. There was one fatality on the Sea Witch, a man had a heart attack while still safe in the house of a ship which itself suffered mostly smoke damage. Most of the crew of the Esso Brussels were incinerated while both ships drifted, locked together in a sea of flaming oil that the NYFD had a heck of a time extinguishing. The difference between the two ships? Construction standards, in paricular fire safety construction standards. From the day she was built, someone or everyone on that ship was going to die if there was a significant fire.
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Old 05-09-2008
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I always find it a little amusing when these beauraucrats say "we'll make these ships safe by 2010" the implication being that "if we kill a few hundred people in the meantime that's OK"

If the teak and other flammable materials commonly found on boats like mine were as dangerous as they are made out to be they should be banned TODAY.

Andre
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