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post #31 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Dude said he wants to do something stupid, i.e., his own survey with no knowledge of what to look for in a survey - folks just back off and let him have his fun.

It's his money.

Just remember when that rudder snaps off and you plow into my boat, it's still your money that will be repairing my boat and paying my medical bills and litagation fees - because I seriously doubt you'll spring for actual insurance if you won't spring for a survey.
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post #32 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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I don't disagree with the majority that if money is no object, a survey is clearly the preferred route to take when purchasing a used vessel unless one has an enormous amount of skill and experience. Perhaps Jags is thinking more along the lines of percentages. A $500 survey on an $8k boat is a pretty high percentage of the purchase price, over 6%. If the boat ends up being a total POS after he buys it then he is out some money. Maybe he can get $5k out of it and learn a lesson. Maybe it is a jewel and worth twice that, nobody here knows. Keep in mind the price range he is looking at, not $80k or $800k. My guess is there are folks on this forum who have more tied up in electronics that he is looking to spend for a boat.

Who here would think that paying 6.25% of their purchase price would be reasonable for a survey on a boat that they may not even buy?

Amazing how this thread went from a guy asking an innocent question about a survey checklist to painting him out as a irresponsible, unsafe, unskilled sailor whose rudder may fail causing a collision with damage and personal injury folowed by litigation because he chooses not to pay a surveyor to look at a boat. I must have missed something.
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post #33 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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unless his marina doesn't require insurance, or he plans on trailering it, or he doesn't want insurance at all, or, its ok not to survey a 1979 boat for insurance, hey, who knows, he might not need a survey. If he doesn't want one, nobody is telling him that he HAS to. I'm certainly not going to tell him he's got to have one, its his nickel.

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post #34 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Chuckles, I think you're overly cruel here. Like FarCry says, a survey can be a steep percentage on a boat that's so affordable (perhaps) to start with. Ill-advised, perhaps. Stupid? That's a bit harsh and judgemental. Every time there's a PowerBall lottery, 40 or 50 million people are "stupid" and play. One of them wins fifty million dollars, and all of a sudden people forget how stupid the idea was, because SOMEONE has to win.

I know plenty of folks who think messing around with boats is stupid. It takes gobs of time and money, produces no practical result, and often endangers the "messee". Maybe by that definition, we're all stupid and there's nothing derogatory about calling members of the club, members of the club.[g]
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post #35 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Chuckles, I think you're overly cruel here. Like FarCry says, a survey can be a steep percentage on a boat that's so affordable (perhaps) to start with. Ill-advised, perhaps. Stupid? That's a bit harsh and judgemental. Every time there's a PowerBall lottery, 40 or 50 million people are "stupid" and play. One of them wins fifty million dollars, and all of a sudden people forget how stupid the idea was, because SOMEONE has to win.

I know plenty of folks who think messing around with boats is stupid. It takes gobs of time and money, produces no practical result, and often endangers the "messee". Maybe by that definition, we're all stupid and there's nothing derogatory about calling members of the club, members of the club.[g]
HE said it was STUPID in the title of the thread, NOT ME. I did not say he had bad judgment nor was I judgmental in any way except to say folks that won't spring for a survey to save money on a low value boat don't usually spring for insurance.

What I DID say was that if the boat is faulty in ways an amateur surveyor can not detect and something happens the owner is responsible for far more than just the lost of the boat. That's true even with a survey - as you point out this is not a penny pincher's hobby.

Now if that's harsh, so be it.

Last edited by chucklesR; 07-25-2008 at 04:11 PM.
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post #36 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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"I never at any time used the word stupid " [message 35]
"Dude said he wants to do something stupid" [message 31]

Obviously, your messages have been editted without your knowledge by enemy agents. Powerboaters, golfers, or wives most likely. [vbg]
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post #37 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Hellosailor, don't pick on the guy with two boats lashed together. When he's not being "harsh" he can be pretty funny. LOL
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post #38 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagsBch View Post
My main concern is trying to determine what shape the hull is in without actually pulling it out of the water.
Sorry it can not effectively be done in water..


Consider that a survey is USUALLY FREE!!! I have yet to actually pay for a survey and I do work with a friend who is a surveyor so I am surely competent to do my own. I ALWAYS use the survey to knock the price down and it always pays for its self.

Problem is a DIY survey will get you virtually nowhere in negotiations. Do you own a moisture meter and know how to use it? it will also get you nowhere with an insurance company.

A good surveyor may get you that boat for 4k as opposed to 8k. You may get it for 7.8 k after a DIY survey for which you don't have the credentials SAMS or NAMS to properly negotiate down the repairs needed.

Without a moisture meter alone, and the "know how" to use it, a DIY, even on an 8K boat, will likely cost you a lot more than the survey.

Of course you apparently already seem to know it all and have not taken advice from those of who have "been there and done that" for the better part of 30 or 40 years as many on this forum have.

I've seen 12k boats turn into 40k nightmare/money pits because a buyer thought he could save $500.00 clams on a survey and do a Don Casey DIY survey..... It's your dime and remember a good survey costs you nothing and it's all but guaranteed to cost you nothing on a 1979!

Heck I bought a BRAND NEW boat in 2005 and found over 2k in issues that needed to be fixed before delivery with a survey. Mostly gelcoat and void issues..

Example:
A deck job, for wet deck cor, on say 20% of the deck, not out of the ordinary for a 1979, would run between 7-12k depending on the yard. A 7-12k deck core repair is a structural issue and essentially TOTALS an 8k boat. You may get this thing for free with a $500.00 survey and it would not be the first time this situation has happened...!

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Last edited by Maine Sail; 07-25-2008 at 04:52 PM.
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post #39 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
The mantra is always to hire a surveyor. I've "supervised" a couple of surveys and seen yard repairs done on a few boats and read every survey book I could get my hand on.
This is what Iíve seen:
1. Surveyor said, I donít do mucky bilges?
2. Didn't inspect the wheel steering, It fell apart two weeks later.
3. Tapped the hull said it was fine. We grounded very lightly boat leaked. We ground and found and extensive layer of black mush over several feet of hull between a couple layers of good glass, found out the yard had repaired the hull a few years ago. The yard re-glassed hull, job looks perfect but the mechanic complained we had ground too much. No where near a 12 to 1 bevel. He said you have to be careful as you have to know where to stop.
4. Batteries failed first week.
5. Didnít go aloft
6. Didnít stretch out sails.
7. Boom was re-rigged by PO from three point center attachment to 1 point. Minor jibe and we bent the boom in half. Survey says - nothing.
8. Did basic check of engine about 5 minutes.

If you need a survey for insurance OK. But based on what I've seen your standard by the foot survey is likely to miss important stuff maybe all the important stuff.
So exactly what are you worried about on an old boat.
1. Hull (You can tap till the cows come home and a quickie yard job will not show up)
2. Deck (Walk it and see if it is soft)
3. Rig (The stainless standing rig is going to fall down if it is over 30 years old but I bet you will not replace it unless you have meat hooks like stripper lures on a $8,000 boat)
4. Engine (Check temp, sound, starting, compression (will they let you pull an injector on an old rusted engine), prop, cutlass etc, good luck not missing several somethingís.
5. Tanks (Check for rust leaks but where you really need to see you canít get without taking out half the boat so you will not look.
How about telling the owner you want to look at the boat at 6PM. Show up at 5:30 take a quick look around, take your sailboat check list and randomly mark a half dozen things as failed. When the owner shows up tell him your surveyor just left and said you should offer $6.000.
Why exactly to you think the boat is offered for $8,000, BECAUSE ITíS NOT WORTH 9,000 AND PROBABLY NOT WORTH 8,000.
I know Iím the junior guy here but I have not seen the god like divination of the surveyor. I expect to get hammered on this post so have at it guys.
I think that with 8,000 at stake the OP can waste his money without a surveyors help.
On the other hand if he spent $500 for a survey and the surveyor convinces him that the 8,000 boat will really cost 8,000 purchase, 16,000 parts plus 3 years work and he chickens out it may be $500 well spent.
Maybe Iíve just seen the wrong surveyors.

As a side note Iím also looking for female companions preferably twins to sail around the world with me on my Hobie 16, please send pictures and current dental records. PS how do you lace up the trampoline, mine rotted out?
I have to say I agree with this post a whole lot.
If I was in his position - and I was - I'd take my checklist to do the initial inspection myself. If the old survey pointed out some potential problems then I'd look more closely at those areas to see if they were remedied.
Once I'd done that and I was basically satisfied - and likely to buy the boat, I'd make the sale conditional on a "real" survey. Perhaps the surveyor brings up something that will knock a few hundred off the selling price (covering his fee) - It also gives you a list of things to work on first if you buy the boat. And you will probably need one for insurance - an 8K boat is worth insuring - and any marina will insist.
having said that - anyone with GOOD overall mechanical/electrical/plumbing skills can evaluate an 8K boat to about 80% reliability - the surveyour can do the remaining 20%. I bet everyone who answered on this thread could do a "basic inspection."
I don't think he's doing something stupid at all

my 2 cents worth

Tom
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post #40 of 57 Old 07-25-2008
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I understand both sides of this issue.
Guy wants to spend 8k on a boat and save a few hundered.
Lets face it, at 8K'the boat is likely to need a lot of work.
Just be ready to spend a lot of time and money for upgrades/repairs.

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If a man is to be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most - E.B. White
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