mechanics lean - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 08-14-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wherever
Posts: 5,264
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 11
xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about
Took a lawyer to point out my uncorrectable mistake

Thanks all

Keelhaulins reply is the scariest one. Any hack mechanic can file a claim and tie you up but good
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 08-14-2008
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
You think that's bad; you need to be even more careful when working with certain "Tow Providers"; it can turn into a salvage lien claim if you are not extremely careful. I heard one story from a reputable person (he was a senior surveyor and used to be the president of one of the two major marine survey organizations). He said that a boat at his marina on the west coast had a salvage claim placed against it for the full value of the boat (~80k or so) because the owner had the boat towed from it's slip to the fuel dock; and that the salver (a very well known "assist" company) won their case in maritime court and was awarded the salvage rights. Be certain you have an agreed amount contract before you take any tow or assistance service from a tow provider!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 08-14-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
I seriously doubt that a company would be awarded full salvage value in court for towing a boat from its slip to the fuel dock. Salvage, by definition, requires the boat to be at imminent risk of damage or loss, and the salvor, by definition, must take risks to save the boat. Towing a boat from the slip to the fuel dock doesn't count, unless the boat was in the process of sinking in its slip and only the fuel docks had the pumps required to keep it afloat.

BTW, if you ask for a tow... if at all possible, hand the boat towing you a line, rather than taking a line from them. Generally, it is looked upon as only a tow if you are providing the line—they are merely providing assistance. If you accept a line from them, it can possibly be considered salvage, since they are providing the "equipment" needed to "rescue" the boat. You are best off having a signed agreement in hand as protection... but if the situation is more serious that being out of fuel or a soft grounding, don't let the lack of a signed agreement stop you from getting assistance unless you are UNINSURED. Most insurance companies will take up the battle in court if the tow company decides to try and screw you and claim salvage.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 08-14-2008
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Well; the person who told us this pointed out the boat which was about 500 yards from the fuel dock; and I really don't take someone like him to be one to tell tall tales. I mean he has a marine survey company that does very high end work (shipping industry, accidents, analysis of steel hulls for strength/thickness, etc). I don't think he would tell a tall tale about a tow service and he referred to them as "The Pirates of the Caribbean" in terms of how they handle tows to non-policy holders.

When I asked him why the issue of imminent risk, etc was overlooked; he said that without a tow agreement if you ask for or take a tow you essentially take your chances. Imminent risk -could- exist in your slip. If the owner requested a tow he must have been in dire need of fuel to keep the boat from sinking; otherwise he could have fueled the boat himself (IIRC that was the basis of the argument).

The salvage right has been given when you take that line (pretty much regardless of your circumstance). It was an extreme case; that boat that was towed in the marina; but the example makes it very clear that the maritime laws are very strange, antiquated, and are not in any way "fair".

We towed a 505 back across the Richmond channel to Brickyard Cove a few days ago; they had the rig come down and were paddling to get back to the marina. At first they did not want a tow; one guy was steering the second was paddling with one hand. On second offer they accepted. They told us that they were outside the jetty and had to carry the boat across and 1/4 mile up before crossing the channel. We towed them across to the marina breakwater and let them paddle in the rest of the way. I'm sure they were worried about "salvage" claim because they did not want a tow at first. We just wanted to help; and I'm sure they realized that after we asked "are you sure"?

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 08-14-2008 at 08:39 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 08-14-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,921
Thanks: 8
Thanked 31 Times in 28 Posts
Rep Power: 10
nolatom will become famous soon enough
Salvage seems to have lots of urban legends about it which are believed by supposedly knowledgeable people. Read the cases and you'll see that there are a host of factors required to constitute "salvage", and even if met, there are a bunch more factors (called the Blackwall factors from a case with that name) that determine whether the salvor gets big money or pocket change. Low-order salvage may get the claimant no more than a reasonable towage fee. High-order salvage (great peril to saved vessel, costly loss successfully avoided, great risk to salvor's equipment/vessel, great skill by salvor, and the service was voluntarily undertaken, etc).

No peril, no salvage. Just towage. And I doubt whoever provides the tow line makes much difference when both of you have an adequate line available and it's a tossup whose to use.

Many things may constitute maritime liens, at least under federal law. Salvage is one. Repairs are another. So are provisions, launch service, fuel, all kinds of things that are "necessary" to run a vessel that the vessel owner (or charterer, who can run up bills, go broke, and leave owner holding the bag) didn't pay for.

Last edited by nolatom; 08-14-2008 at 10:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 08-14-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 14
k1vsk will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Boat is documented.
I do plan on putting 'paid in full' on the check.

Some of you are saying leins can be placed without the knowledge of the owner. So what's to stop me from putting a lein on your boat for whatever reason?
Documentation of the boat is irrelevent.
Putting "paid in full' on the check serves no purpose other than make you feel good. If that there the case, everyone who wants to defraud a merchant would write that phrase on every (underpaid) check. In fact, the only value that phrase might have is in documenting to a court that you paid a merchant/retailer/contractor by providing documentation that the merchant/retailer/contractor wrote "paid in full". You writing it and someone cashing it proves nothing.

Most states require lien notification.

What stops you from putting a frivilous lien on my boat "for whatever reason" is, as I said before, I can sue you for treble damages and likely win!
That should stop you...

The bigger issue is why anyone would seek legal advice on the internet?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 08-15-2008
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Salvage seems to have lots of urban legends about it which are believed by supposedly knowledgeable people.
A first-hand account does not qualify as an urban legend; and I don't think the man that told the story is "supposedly knowledgeable". He has spent his entire life around boats; sailboats in particular and as I mentioned before he was the chairman of SAMS or NAMS at one point (I cant recall which one). If you wish to know who he is; PM me and we can chat more offline about it. If you look carefully at your BoatUS card (if you are a member) the $50 tow is only a rebate on the total bill; not a tow for $50. Many people make that mistake and then get a shockingly high bill because they misunderstood thinking their card is some sort of on the water AAA card.


Quote:
Read the cases and you'll see that there are a host of factors required to constitute "salvage", and even if met, there are a bunch more factors (called the Blackwall factors from a case with that name) that determine whether the salvor gets big money or pocket change. Low-order salvage may get the claimant no more than a reasonable towage fee. High-order salvage (great peril to saved vessel, costly loss successfully avoided, great risk to salvor's equipment/vessel, great skill by salvor, and the service was voluntarily undertaken, etc).
While this is true; the bigger issue is valuation of the boat VS court costs. If a salvor slaps a lien for the entire value of the boat on it; you are stuck until it is resolved in court. You can't sell the boat and you are going to pay through the nose to have a lawyer defend you. So what happens? The insurance company (assuming you have insurance) usually negotiates a payoff for the salvage lien and then the boat owner gets to keep his boat. I think the valuation of most privately owned pleasure boats does constitute "pocket change" when it comes to courts who regularly deal with valuations above 1 million. I know it sounds strange but a boat worth 80k or less really is not very high dollar in terms of salvage rights.


Quote:
No peril, no salvage. Just towage. And I doubt whoever provides the tow line makes much difference when both of you have an adequate line available and it's a tossup whose to use.
Another thing that the surveyor said was "never take their line; always provide your own". It does go to the establishment of a salvage right; and in his words it was very important to remember (IIRC it counts toward establishment of the amount of peril you are in). If you can't provide a line to help save yourself; well you are pretty much SOL unless you take the line the salvor is offering.

Quote:
Many things may constitute maritime liens, at least under federal law. Salvage is one. Repairs are another. So are provisions, launch service, fuel, all kinds of things that are "necessary" to run a vessel that the vessel owner (or charterer, who can run up bills, go broke, and leave owner holding the bag) didn't pay for.
Yes that goes back to when cargo ships, etc were owned by a corporation and the skipper had no money onboard to pay the debts they incurred while traveling to their destination. Every bill was carried as a lien against the boat until the corporation paid the bills. Today it is mostly used as leverage when a dispute arises over payment; not as an IOU as was originally intended. Maritime law is mainly designed for equitable resolution of cases in the shipping industry.

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 08-15-2008 at 06:07 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 08-15-2008
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by k1vsk View Post
Documentation of the boat is irrelevent.
Putting "paid in full' on the check serves no purpose other than make you feel good. If that there the case, everyone who wants to defraud a merchant would write that phrase on every (underpaid) check. In fact, the only value that phrase might have is in documenting to a court that you paid a merchant/retailer/contractor by providing documentation that the merchant/retailer/contractor wrote "paid in full". You writing it and someone cashing it proves nothing.
Your canceled check is always a receipt for payment. If you don't pay in full then you really are not clearing yourself from a lien anyway. If you pay in cash; well you better get a receipt that says "paid in full".

Quote:
Most states require lien notification.
While I'm sure they do; it still goes to the fact that the lien can be placed without a court decision. If I'm notified that a lien will be placed if I don't pay; then I either pay it to prevent the headache or wait for a court date. Of course I could sue after making the payment for reimbursement; but as the plaintiff you are then the person with "burden of proof".

Quote:
What stops you from putting a frivilous lien on my boat "for whatever reason" is, as I said before, I can sue you for treble damages and likely win!
That should stop you...

The bigger issue is why anyone would seek legal advice on the internet?
What are "treble" damages? You can't place a bogus lien because there are severe penalties from either Fed Gov or State if you are found to be trying to defraud someone. That does not mean that there are not scammers; just saying that if you are smart you would not go there. People seek legal advice here and elsewhere on the internet because it's safer and less expensive than talking to a lawyer in most cases (insert shark analogy or lawyer joke here).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Exploding tyre sends mechanics flying (Independent Online) NewsReader News Feeds 0 02-14-2007 03:15 AM
Lehman Diesel Mechanics jgeltz Gear & Maintenance 0 09-29-2006 12:09 AM
Boat Lean? ricccccc Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 02-09-2006 03:42 AM
Marine diesel mechanics Leslie2 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 0 09-23-2001 08:32 AM
Diesel mechanics Leslie2 Gear & Maintenance 0 09-23-2001 08:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:24 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.