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post #11 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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post #12 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Hal, you mention twice that Alec stated his intentions early, I fail to see how - he only changed course to avoid a collision (as he must do). He should have at least blown a horn - heck the j/24 might not even have seen him.
From his description it sounded to me like he made one definitive turn to avoid collision thus satisfying Rule 8.. Maybe I misinterpreted his maneuver but it does not sound like he made baby steps to state his intentions..




RULE 8
ACTION TO AVOID COLLISION
(a)Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and [Intl] shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b)Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c)If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
(d)Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e)If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.



Rules 16 & 17:


Rule 16
Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.
Rule 17
(a)
    1. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
    2. The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b)When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c)A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d)This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.






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post #13 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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Hal,
Could be just me being picky.
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post #14 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Hal,
Could be just me being picky.
I have no problems with horn blasts it's just not part of the "stating your intentions early" part of avoiding a collision.

The problem we face in Maine is lobster pots. Often times a maneuver to avoid a lobster pot may be mistaken as a course change so it's very important to monitor the VHF and to get back on desired compass course ASAP after avoiding a pot if you are the "stand on" vessel..

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post #15 of 68 Old 09-04-2008 Thread Starter
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Ok, I admit it, the first post was somehow incomplete...
I DID let the other skipper know my intentions, horn and whistle. My wife signaled him our course, he saw us and did nothing, not even aknowledge he won't change his course.
The other disclousure is that I mean stand on - give way... i'm from Mexico and fail ro remember this terms, sorry for that.
By reporting him I mean I'm trying to make a case with the Port Captain that instruction for boaters, sail and motor alike, is needed at our lake. In Mexico is Port Captain's duty to enforce this knowledge to all registered vessels.
Hope this helps to clarify this..

Alecs123
Alejandro Viveros
Valle de Bravo, Mexico
Merit 25, #302. 1982
Flying Tern 14', 1968


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post #16 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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Lets say he's a racer, on a hunch.

How close was he when you changed your course? Could you reach out and touch his boat?

I'm thinking, him being a racer, made a judgement call and figured you two would pass with room, and you thought otherwise.

Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
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post #17 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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Knowing full well the emotions this subject can stir up amongst many of you, I hesitate to even get involved in this, but…

I understand there is one and only one rule – DON’T HIT ANYONE!!!

That said, there are the “other rules”.

“If you were on Starboard and to Leeward of him, you would have ROW.”

That refers to two different rules. In the situation cited, the only rule that applies is the starboard tack boat is privileged. The leeward position only comes into play if both boats are on the same tack (No, I cannot quote chapter and verse.).

"It was not specified that the boats were racing but that probably doesn't matter."

Yes, that doesn’t matter!!! I usually try to cut boats obviously racing some slack, but I’ve also seen some race courses set up in some pretty stupid places.

"Some older salts used the term "Privileged" and "Burdened"."

I’m just plain old!!!

"Stand on is just that, it implies that you WILL stand on, or at a minimum signal intentions to do otherwise PRIOR to changing course so that the burdened vessel does not in maneuvering to avoid you instead place themselves, and you in greater jeopardy."

Just for S&G, let’s say that the privileged vessel sees the impending and very real threat of collision. She gives a horn blast to signal her intentions to alter her course, giving way. Her signal is not confirmed by a return signal. Waiting as long as she can, she finally executes the course change. The burdened vessel also makes a course change and a collision occurs. At the time of impact, the vessel originally privileged is now on port tack and the vessel originally burdened is on starboard tack.

Comments?

"horn signals:
Pass to port - 1 short blast,
pass to starboard, 2 short blasts."


I was under the impression that one blast means I’m changing my course to my starboard and two blasts means I’m altering course to my port. Again, I cannot quote chapter and verse.

"This might help!
Basic Sailing: Rules of Sailing"


This has to be one of the poorest codifications of the rules I’ve ever seen!!!

"The other disclousure is that I mean stand on - give way... i'm from Mexico and fail ro remember this terms, sorry for that."

Alejandro, I presume your first language is Castilian and you are obviously multi-lingual. I’ve been travelling overseas for work for 29 years and can only speak one language - PLEASE do not apologize.

Beyond the “one and only” rule, I heartily agree with the advice to show some courtesy and common sense out there.


Paul
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post #18 of 68 Old 09-04-2008 Thread Starter
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Maybe he's a recer, but there was no competition at that time... When I change my course I was maybe 30ft from him, I steered to starboard to let him pass ahead of me. the thing is that we let him know well before our intentions, he saw us and did nothing at all.
that's why I asked, to be certain for sure.

Alecs123
Alejandro Viveros
Valle de Bravo, Mexico
Merit 25, #302. 1982
Flying Tern 14', 1968


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post #19 of 68 Old 09-04-2008
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BTW - nice Merit.
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post #20 of 68 Old 09-04-2008 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
BTW - nice Merit.
Thanks, it's a great boat.... fast and fun.
I don't race a lot, mainly day sails and some overnights

Alecs123
Alejandro Viveros
Valle de Bravo, Mexico
Merit 25, #302. 1982
Flying Tern 14', 1968


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