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  #31  
Old 09-08-2008
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pegasus, that is correct and it turns out that the OP was on Starboard AND later to Leeward as the other boat was running under spinnaker offwind.

When you're on the chute, everybody in front of you is to Leeward.
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AE28 View Post
So, Charlie, I presume you're suggesting that after determining I'm the privileged/stand-on vessel, the next step is to determine if the burdened/give-way vessel is a hot racing boat. If she is, then I can completely disregard her as her driver will know exactly what to do and when to do to.

Just in case it doesn't work out as planned, how long after the collision do I have to wait to throw the flag?

and how exactly did you get that question from my post?
I stated that the J-boat driver likely knew he was WRONG to start with and in the finest tradition of some "Hack" drivers on the course, forced his way on Alejandro. If you wanna wait for a collision, go for it. Me? I'm making a course change as soon as I think the other boat isn't. That won't preclude me from hailing him on vhf, requesting a channel change and discussing it, if I can't hail him normally.
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  #33  
Old 09-08-2008
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Wow! This is good stuff to know. I raced as a younger lad and know ROW but this is an interesting debate.
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  #34  
Old 09-08-2008
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Interesting thread. I race and I'm kinda a rule junkie but...

Yea Starboard has rights over Port (stand on, right of way, whatever word you want to use). Assuming the boats are not racing, Starboard should maintain course. The question is when do you divert course to avoid collision?
There was some comment like 'so, should I determine if this is a race boat before I consider evasive action or not?'. Well, yes you should. In fact you make all kinds of judgements like this all the time. how close would you come to a J24 before you take evasive action? How about a tanker? A laser?

I have personally had a collision with a J24 when I was priviledged boat (had rights - we were racing) and I took evasive action because I thought the J24 was not going to give way. What I have discovered since then is that J24 racers have what I call very small personal space. They are used to coming VERY close to their competition and most can control their boats extremely well. Remember, that boat flying a spinnaker on Port coming down on the Starboard boat can probably turn a 180 in less than it's length. If he knows your there, he won't hit you. He might come so close you think you're going to hit, but he probably won't hit you.

If that was an 80 foot cruising sailboat under full spinnaker doing 10 knots I would get the heck out of the way.
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  #35  
Old 09-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
KH-

If you have the motor running, I do believe you lose rights as a sailboat, since you are under power, even if the engine isn't in gear IIRC.
So if I had run into the guy without my motor running that somehow is better? I left it on because I knew there would be trouble ahead; and there was. I'm glad reverse was available when I needed it; and he should be too (or his racing day would have been ruined). 18,000 lbs of boat does not stop quickly or turn on a dime.

I think that rule applies if you are under full power from an engine; not under sail with engine running in neutral. Also, the issue of draft and forcing a boat to go aground to avoid collision supersedes any issue of who is under sail and who may be deemed to not be under sail. We hear the broadcast on ch 16 all the time "less maneuverable or deep draft vessels operating in an area where draft is limited have the right-of-way". This only applies to tankers and cargo ships? I don't think so...
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  #36  
Old 09-09-2008
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KH—

I'm not saying that ramming him would have been better...just pointing out that under COLREGS, you may have been considered a power vessel at the time, and if you had hit him thinking that they were the give way vessel, you might be found at fault. Yes, I know that avoiding a collision is the primary responsibility, but wanted to point out the possible consequences of having the engine running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
So if I had run into the guy without my motor running that somehow is better? I left it on because I knew there would be trouble ahead; and there was. I'm glad reverse was available when I needed it; and he should be too (or his racing day would have been ruined). 18,000 lbs of boat does not stop quickly or turn on a dime.

I think that rule applies if you are under full power from an engine; not under sail with engine running in neutral. Also, the issue of draft and forcing a boat to go aground to avoid collision supersedes any issue of who is under sail and who may be deemed to not be under sail. We hear the broadcast on ch 16 all the time "less maneuverable or deep draft vessels operating in an area where draft is limited have the right-of-way". This only applies to tankers and cargo ships? I don't think so...
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  #37  
Old 09-09-2008
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Sorry Skipper, I drew out the situation to view it. If you were on starboard tack, that means you had the wind coming from starboard and you were on a broad reach which you then had the means to maneuver. He was on a not on a dead run if he was on port tack he had the wind coming over the port quarter on a run on Port Gybe. He had the right of way as he, as you have described it, was on your starboard side. If this is true and I have it right, He was the stand on vessel. I most cases I would try early on to give way if at all safe for me to do so as it would be easier for me to maneuver as it would be for him to gybe under Spinnaker, just to be safe and courteous.
If I have interpeted this incorrectly then who knows??
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captjim6 View Post
Sorry Skipper, I drew out the situation to view it. If you were on starboard tack, that means you had the wind coming from starboard and you were on a broad reach which you then had the means to maneuver.
Maneuverability is not part of rule 12 and they were not constricted by draft or other wise encumbered.. Starboard tack has stand on status over port tack (see rule 12 bellow).


Quote:
Originally Posted by captjim6 View Post
He was on a not on a dead run if he was on port tack he had the wind coming over the port quarter on a run on Port Gybe.
Yep he was on port tack and I don't recall reading that he gibed the vessel. Again, the vessel on port tack, in the OP's description, is the give way vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captjim6 View Post
He had the right of way as he, as you have described it, was on your starboard side.
This was not windward / leeward situation it was a clear port/stbd tack situation. The vessel on stbd tack was stand on over the vessel on port tack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captjim6 View Post
If this is true and I have it right, He was the stand on vessel. I most cases I would try early on to give way if at all safe for me to do so as it would be easier for me to maneuver as it would be for him to gybe under Spinnaker, just to be safe and courteous.
If I have interpeted this incorrectly then who knows??
Based on the data given by the OP you have indeed somehow interpreted this incorrectly. Here's the link to the 72 COLREGS: 72 COLREGS


You might want to re-read 72 COLREGS, rule 12, as it's actually quite easy to understand and amazingly clearly worded.

Rule 12
(a)When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
    1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
    2. when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
    3. if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.
(b)For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-09-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieCobra View Post

and how exactly did you get that question from my post?
I stated that the J-boat driver likely knew he was WRONG to start with and in the finest tradition of some "Hack" drivers on the course, forced his way on Alejandro. If you wanna wait for a collision, go for it. Me? I'm making a course change as soon as I think the other boat isn't. That won't preclude me from hailing him on vhf, requesting a channel change and discussing it, if I can't hail him normally.
Charlie, guess I'm having a problem understanding your point.
Are you now suggesting that if I determine the other boat is a hot racing boat, I should just get out of her way, regardless?
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2008
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I guess you are at that. I'm saying that whether it's a hot racing boat as you put it or a Chinese junk, if it appears he's not maneuvering to avoid YOU, the stand on vessel, then yes, get the hell out of the way to avoid a collision. Just because someone actively races their boat doesn't mean they're a good skipper. Matter of fact, they're probably use to much closer sailing than the average sailor and also use to having their way on the course. Crossing another boat by mere feet is normal on the course but certainly not normal for those who don't race. The J-24 driver in the OP's situation probably figured that the OP would break off early, regardless of him being the stand on boat, just to avoid a possible collision. That way the J driver wouldn't have to gybe that kite. He was just being the average hack (asswipe) skipper. Me? I don't like playing chicken with boats. Now, if ya still don't get what I'm saying, that's unfortunate.
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