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Right of way question

8K views 67 replies 20 participants last post by  dcarey 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been looking for an answer but can't find a straight forward answer...
I was on a broad reach on starboard tack, then a j/24 on a dead run on port tack. Who has right of way? He was flying the spinnaker. I changed my course in order to avoid a collision, but I think he should have changed his course.
thanks in advance
 
#3 ·
The spinnaker changes nothing other than empathy for those of us who fly them short handed. In my reading of the rules you had rights of way on both counts, tack and leward/windward as Charlie states. In the same situation I would have changed course just out of courtesy for the spinnaker.
 
#5 · (Edited)
The 72 COLREGS do not give sailboats any "any right of way". The term "right of way", and thinking that goes along with this language is just plain dangerous and I have seen it get many unprepared and less knowledgeable sailors into big trouble. How many times have we all heard this?? "I had right of way over that idiot! I'm a sail boat ******** it"...

You were the stand on vessel but calling the term "right of way" is a little dangerous and tends to denote set in stone privileges.

There is only one certain situation in the 72 COLREGS, rule #9, where the term "right of way" is used and it does not apply in your situation.

The proper terminology is "Stand on vessel" and "Give way vessel". The ultimate goal of the COLREGS is to prevent collision and the COLREGS lay out certain criteria to follow under circumstances such as the one you experienced. When it becomes clear that you are a stand on vessel but the other guy does not know the rules of the road you need to make your intentions known as early as possible as you did.

Also bear in mind that the vast majority of boaters DO NOT know the COLREGS. You did the right thing by stating your intentions early thus avoiding a collision. If the J-24 had a clue he would have given way early and let you be the stand on vessel, as he should have, spinnaker or not..

Here is specific wording from the USCG regarding the Stand On and Give Way vessels:

"The International Navigation Rules do not confer upon any vessel the right of way however, certain vessels in sight of each other are responsible to keep out of the way of others. Usually, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way of a vessel not under command or restricted in her ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or a vessel engaged in fishing. However, some exceptions exist when they themselves are not in command or restricted in her ability to maneuver (Rule 18), overtaking another vessel (Rule 13), are navigating a narrow channel or fairway (Rule 9), and other less explicit circumstances. Navigation Rules should be regarded as a code of conduct and not a bill of rights. They do not bestow rights or privileges, but impose the duty to either give-way or stand-on, dependent on the circumstances. What is important is not so much what things are, i.e. sailing vessel, operational, etc., but how to avoid collisions, e.g. although under sail yet able to be propelled by machinery, obtaining an early warning by radar, etc. Understand, the Rules are in place to prevent collisions not to define nautical terms or to be subjected to strict interpretation."
 
#6 ·
I was on starboard tack and leeward. roughly I was on a west course 260° and he was on a south course 180°.
I think I'll report him to port authority, this is not the first time racing boats (not in a regatta) that make this moves.
thanks
 
#8 · (Edited)
I think I'll report him to port authority, this is not the first time racing boats (not in a regatta) that make this moves.
thanks
It won't do much good but go ahead if you want to. If there had been an accident, reporting would be in order. Reporting someone not "giving way" is going to get you about the same response as reporting a guy you saw "driving over the speed limit"...
 
#7 ·
Yes - but there could be several other factors that are involved. It was not specified that the boats were racing but that probably doesn't matter. However, if a collision had occurred it is likely that both boats would have been found to be at fault to some extent.
 
#9 ·
Well said halekai36. The correct term is "Stand On" and "Give Way" which gives clear indication to the vessels appropriate action in both cases. Some older salts used the term "Priveledged" and "Burdened".

The term right of way implies some sense of absolute right which the rules pretty much never support as the obligation to avoid collision is the primary principal of the COLREGS. Of course the term "Stand On" could be mis-understood to just keep going right into the side of the "Give Way" vessel when the rules state that even if you are the "Stand On" vessel you must deviate course to avoid collision. The point is follow the rules but in all cases avoid collision.
 
#10 ·
You were stand on vessel, and did not signal your intention (or at least didn't mention it if you did) to change course to the give way vessel, dude - while you report him report yourself.

Hal, you mention twice that Alec stated his intentions early, I fail to see how - he only changed course to avoid a collision (as he must do). He should have at least blown a horn - heck the j/24 might not even have seen him.

Stand on is just that, it implies that you WILL stand on, or at a minimum signal intentions to do otherwise PRIOR to changing course so that the burdened vessel does not in maneuvering to avoid you instead place themselves, and you in greater jeopardy.

Meeting head to head - horn signals:

Pass to port - 1 short blast,
pass to starboard, 2 short blasts.

Overtaking signals are different - port = 2 long 2 short, Starboard 2 long one short.

The fact that there are no signals for 'Crossing' as you were doing only strengthens the point that you were the stand on.

In similar situations, courtesy and thoughtfulness being my rule I would have signaled my intentions via horn signal and made way for him as he was perhaps less maneuverable and maybe racing.

Of course in the light air this month on the Bay I could have signaled by walking to the bow and pointing, and waiting for an acknowledgment (did that three times this past weekend).


Many times on our local river where we race there are sail boats out there that unintentionally get in the way of racers, not once has a friendly shouted "I'm racing, will you bear off" not been received with a smile and a wave as they bear off...even if they are the stand on.
 
#12 ·
Hal, you mention twice that Alec stated his intentions early, I fail to see how - he only changed course to avoid a collision (as he must do). He should have at least blown a horn - heck the j/24 might not even have seen him.
From his description it sounded to me like he made one definitive turn to avoid collision thus satisfying Rule 8.. Maybe I misinterpreted his maneuver but it does not sound like he made baby steps to state his intentions..


RULE 8
ACTION TO AVOID COLLISION​
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and [Intl] shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.


Rules 16 & 17:


Rule 16
Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.
Rule 17
(a)
    1. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
    2. The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.





 
#14 ·
I have no problems with horn blasts it's just not part of the "stating your intentions early" part of avoiding a collision.

The problem we face in Maine is lobster pots. Often times a maneuver to avoid a lobster pot may be mistaken as a course change so it's very important to monitor the VHF and to get back on desired compass course ASAP after avoiding a pot if you are the "stand on" vessel..
 
#15 ·
Ok, I admit it, the first post was somehow incomplete...
I DID let the other skipper know my intentions, horn and whistle. My wife signaled him our course, he saw us and did nothing, not even aknowledge he won't change his course.
The other disclousure is that I mean stand on - give way... i'm from Mexico and fail ro remember this terms, sorry for that.
By reporting him I mean I'm trying to make a case with the Port Captain that instruction for boaters, sail and motor alike, is needed at our lake. In Mexico is Port Captain's duty to enforce this knowledge to all registered vessels.
Hope this helps to clarify this..
 
#16 ·
Lets say he's a racer, on a hunch.

How close was he when you changed your course? Could you reach out and touch his boat?

I'm thinking, him being a racer, made a judgement call and figured you two would pass with room, and you thought otherwise.
 
#17 ·
Knowing full well the emotions this subject can stir up amongst many of you, I hesitate to even get involved in this, but…

I understand there is one and only one rule - DON'T HIT ANYONE!!!

That said, there are the "other rules".

"If you were on Starboard and to Leeward of him, you would have ROW."

That refers to two different rules. In the situation cited, the only rule that applies is the starboard tack boat is privileged. The leeward position only comes into play if both boats are on the same tack (No, I cannot quote chapter and verse.).

"It was not specified that the boats were racing but that probably doesn't matter."

Yes, that doesn't matter!!! I usually try to cut boats obviously racing some slack, but I've also seen some race courses set up in some pretty stupid places.

"Some older salts used the term "Privileged" and "Burdened"."

I'm just plain old!!!

"Stand on is just that, it implies that you WILL stand on, or at a minimum signal intentions to do otherwise PRIOR to changing course so that the burdened vessel does not in maneuvering to avoid you instead place themselves, and you in greater jeopardy."

Just for S&G, let's say that the privileged vessel sees the impending and very real threat of collision. She gives a horn blast to signal her intentions to alter her course, giving way. Her signal is not confirmed by a return signal. Waiting as long as she can, she finally executes the course change. The burdened vessel also makes a course change and a collision occurs. At the time of impact, the vessel originally privileged is now on port tack and the vessel originally burdened is on starboard tack.

Comments?

"horn signals:
Pass to port - 1 short blast,
pass to starboard, 2 short blasts."


I was under the impression that one blast means I'm changing my course to my starboard and two blasts means I'm altering course to my port. Again, I cannot quote chapter and verse.

"This might help!
Basic Sailing: Rules of Sailing"


This has to be one of the poorest codifications of the rules I've ever seen!!!

"The other disclousure is that I mean stand on - give way... i'm from Mexico and fail ro remember this terms, sorry for that."

Alejandro, I presume your first language is Castilian and you are obviously multi-lingual. I've been travelling overseas for work for 29 years and can only speak one language - PLEASE do not apologize.

Beyond the "one and only" rule, I heartily agree with the advice to show some courtesy and common sense out there.

:)
Paul
 
#18 ·
Maybe he's a recer, but there was no competition at that time... When I change my course I was maybe 30ft from him, I steered to starboard to let him pass ahead of me. the thing is that we let him know well before our intentions, he saw us and did nothing at all.
that's why I asked, to be certain for sure.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Alejandro, if ya know where he moors, you need to pay him a visit and make sure he understands the rules, preferably over a brew in the club. You sail a Merit 25, do ya race it? If not, why not? That's a nice, quick little boat and it's perfect for PHRF.

For you pontificators that didn't like my terms, tough tittie. Folks who race these boats understand ROW and the word rights in context with it's use with regards to sailboats. This ain't the friggin' admiralty or a primer for it. You can bet the J driver understood PERFECTLY well what he did, if he saw the Merit and his ass would've been DQ'd in a race if the flag was thrown. Christ I get tired of the same old people doing the same old nitpickin', on MULTIPLE FORUMS for f%^&*& no less! Give it rest or at least couch your terms.
 
#23 · (Edited)
For you pontificators that didn't like my terms, tough tittie. Folks who race these boats understand ROW and the word rights in context with it's use with regards to sailboats. This ain't the friggin' admiralty or a primer for it. You can bet the J driver understood PERFECTLY well what he did, if he saw the Merit and his ass would've been DQ'd in a race if the flag was thrown. Christ I get tired of the same old people doing the same old nitpickin', on MULTIPLE FORUMS for f%^&*& no less! Give it rest or at least couch your terms.
Charlie I'm guessing that jab was thrown at me. I was NOT throwing that at you but rather at the subject line of the original post.

I'm sorry if you don't like my pontificating about proper terms. I've seen too many knuckle heads in sailboats think they have a god given "RIGHT OF WAY" and have caused accidents. Had one last night in the race between two J boats who know the rules and yet still tangled at the start. Yes most everyone who races calls it "I had rights", I do too but many are now accepting and using stand on/give way. In races mostly it's just STARBOARD! We were actually the stadn on vessel in the tangle being on stbd and the leward boat but we gave way well before the collision because the J skippers are cowboys!

The problem is with general cruising. I am trying with my posts to direct folks to open up their minds and direct them away from terms even the USCG deems not suitable. As I ALWAYS state the ultimate rule is to avoid collision..

Charlie you can call it ROW, privileged, or stand on because I know you actually know the COLREGS but the vast majority of boaters, even on this and other forums, don't or barely know a few of them and constantly hearing the term Right of Way carries with it, what I (& the USCG) consider, and have seen to be, a dangerous connotation. The USCG did not post those writings I referenced above for NO reason... Perhaps your beef should be with the USCG? As far as I know most on this board are cruisers and the vast majority of racers are over on SA.

With all this typing I don't even know if an inland lake in Mexico goes by the COLREGS so all this may be totally useless...

So yes, I will keep on the band wagon of stand on, give way and the #1 rule AVOID COLLISIONS. If you have issue with my pontificating so be it and we can always agree to disagree..
 
#22 ·
Charlie, that's a great idea, but if I was to have a beer with everyone that make things like that, I would end at AA, :D
Or maybe I will start a business, at a shore bar, the first on me, and then everyone pays for the drinks!

I would love to race my Merit, however, where I sail, the sailing community is very closed to One Design, and as far as I know, there are no interest in PHRF races.
I don't know how to start and organize this kind of races, but I will research.
 
#24 ·
I did spout over a bit on that didn't I? I understand EXACTLY what you're saying and why. I suppose that just hit my funny bone or something. Yep, there's a lot of hacks driving J-boats out there. I reckon ya have the choice to not put yourself in a position to take it to the room or not. It's not like it's gonna cost ya THAT much time on the course. I agree that in cruising situations or situations involving mixed vessel types, i.e. sail and power, the proper terms should be used and I suppose they should be used across the board to avoid confusion, as not everybody races sailboats. Regardless, you and I bump heads on occasion and have for a few years now without rancor so no problems here.

Alenjandro, ya might do a web search on PHRF or other ratings systems used in Mexico like IRC. I'm sure there's some sort of handicapping system available down there. Check with local yacht clubs too.
 
#25 ·
Charlie, regarding PHRF in Mexico the only club that runs compensated times races is the MORC (Mexican Ocean Racing Circuit). They only accept boats larger than 35tf and as the names states, they do ocean races.
In my little lake, there's one ragata a year called "vuelta al lago" (all around the lake), that considers non one design racing among the one class (jy15, j/24, laser, hobby 16, santana 20). The "open class" is for boats ranging from 21 to 32 ft and must have a cabin and a crew minimum of 4. They don´t compensate times so the first who crosses the finish line wins, there's however, a sub category in this class that is spinnaker and non spinnaker.
 
#28 ·
KH-

If you have the motor running, I do believe you lose rights as a sailboat, since you are under power, even if the engine isn't in gear IIRC.
 
#35 ·
So if I had run into the guy without my motor running that somehow is better? I left it on because I knew there would be trouble ahead; and there was. I'm glad reverse was available when I needed it; and he should be too (or his racing day would have been ruined). 18,000 lbs of boat does not stop quickly or turn on a dime.

I think that rule applies if you are under full power from an engine; not under sail with engine running in neutral. Also, the issue of draft and forcing a boat to go aground to avoid collision supersedes any issue of who is under sail and who may be deemed to not be under sail. We hear the broadcast on ch 16 all the time "less maneuverable or deep draft vessels operating in an area where draft is limited have the right-of-way". This only applies to tankers and cargo ships? I don't think so...
 
#34 ·
Interesting thread. I race and I'm kinda a rule junkie but...

Yea Starboard has rights over Port (stand on, right of way, whatever word you want to use). Assuming the boats are not racing, Starboard should maintain course. The question is when do you divert course to avoid collision?
There was some comment like 'so, should I determine if this is a race boat before I consider evasive action or not?'. Well, yes you should. In fact you make all kinds of judgements like this all the time. how close would you come to a J24 before you take evasive action? How about a tanker? A laser?

I have personally had a collision with a J24 when I was priviledged boat (had rights - we were racing) and I took evasive action because I thought the J24 was not going to give way. What I have discovered since then is that J24 racers have what I call very small personal space. They are used to coming VERY close to their competition and most can control their boats extremely well. Remember, that boat flying a spinnaker on Port coming down on the Starboard boat can probably turn a 180 in less than it's length. If he knows your there, he won't hit you. He might come so close you think you're going to hit, but he probably won't hit you.

If that was an 80 foot cruising sailboat under full spinnaker doing 10 knots I would get the heck out of the way.
 
#37 ·
Sorry Skipper, I drew out the situation to view it. If you were on starboard tack, that means you had the wind coming from starboard and you were on a broad reach which you then had the means to maneuver. He was on a not on a dead run if he was on port tack he had the wind coming over the port quarter on a run on Port Gybe. He had the right of way as he, as you have described it, was on your starboard side. If this is true and I have it right, He was the stand on vessel. I most cases I would try early on to give way if at all safe for me to do so as it would be easier for me to maneuver as it would be for him to gybe under Spinnaker, just to be safe and courteous.
If I have interpeted this incorrectly then who knows??
 
#38 · (Edited)
Sorry Skipper, I drew out the situation to view it. If you were on starboard tack, that means you had the wind coming from starboard and you were on a broad reach which you then had the means to maneuver.
Maneuverability is not part of rule 12 and they were not constricted by draft or other wise encumbered.. Starboard tack has stand on status over port tack (see rule 12 bellow).

He was on a not on a dead run if he was on port tack he had the wind coming over the port quarter on a run on Port Gybe.
Yep he was on port tack and I don't recall reading that he gibed the vessel. Again, the vessel on port tack, in the OP's description, is the give way vessel.

He had the right of way as he, as you have described it, was on your starboard side.
This was not windward / leeward situation it was a clear port/stbd tack situation. The vessel on stbd tack was stand on over the vessel on port tack.

If this is true and I have it right, He was the stand on vessel. I most cases I would try early on to give way if at all safe for me to do so as it would be easier for me to maneuver as it would be for him to gybe under Spinnaker, just to be safe and courteous.
If I have interpeted this incorrectly then who knows??
Based on the data given by the OP you have indeed somehow interpreted this incorrectly. Here's the link to the 72 COLREGS: 72 COLREGS

You might want to re-read 72 COLREGS, rule 12, as it's actually quite easy to understand and amazingly clearly worded.

Rule 12
(a)When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
    1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
    2. when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
    3. if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.
(b)For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.
 
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