Sinking

[camaraderie]

Bubb...you got that right. I've been looking at what CAUSED them to be out there in that weather as that is the real question. These were experienced sailors so one would assume that they had done their homework on weather given the time of year and the north atlantic.
Ocean Prediction Center - Product Loops
If you look at the individual maps on this last 14 day loop of offshore wind wave forecasts you will note that the forecast made on 12UTC the 26th looks rough for the 28th but nothing a good boat and crew can't handle...30-35kts on a reach with 10-15ft. seas. By the next forecast on 00utc on the 27th...the two day forcast called for 40-45knots from abeam and 15-20ft. seas...higher gusts and waves of course to be expected. By then it was too late to seek shelter and the expected conditions are what the coast guard reported.
In summary...the weather forcast deteriorated rapidly while they were out to sea and I can't see any lack of judgement based on the evidence at hand. The Atlantic can sneek up on you quickly at this time of year...and in this case, it appears that despite having a premium blue water boat...the boat did not stand up to the sea as welll as the crew. Of significance it that is was a bilge pump that let them down on a new to them boat. Lesson: Never go to sea without multiple bilge pump backups and a LARGE manual pump.

[sailingdog]

Well, the timing is interesting on the Maine situation, so it is something to wonder about.

As for bilge pumps... two large manual ones...one accessible in the cockpit, and one down below is what I generally recommend... in a pinch you can have two people bailing via the pumps...which beats a bucket anyday.

[bubb2]

Cam, We can't 2sd guess a seasoned Capt. and a well found boat. I do think it came in faster and stronger than anticipated. The thing I question (not as right or wrong but as to why) is the quote out of the article in your link that they went below and was rolled 15 min's later.

[smackdaddy]

In short - this looks like another case of "BFS Proponents" that weren't prepared, got into a situation that was far above their heads, and had to punch the EPIRB.

Only in this case, these experienced sailors needed a very, very expensive rescue and actually caused injury to one of the SAR personnel.

Man, looks like even a seasoned Captain needs some serious second guessing if he sailed himself and his crew into a mess like this.

Idiots?

[bubb2]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

In short - this looks like another case of "BFS Proponents" that weren't prepared, got into a situation that was far above their heads, and had to punch the EPIRB.

Only in this case, these experienced sailors needed a very, very expensive rescue and actually caused injury to one of the SAR personnel.

Man, looks like even a seasoned Captain needs some serious second guessing if he sailed himself and his crew into a mess like this.

Idiots?

Smack, a man died, another injured and you are OUT OF LINE

[KODAD]

Smack,
If one more person has to explain it to you, you will never understand. Give it up. You've said what you wanted to say. Everyone understands what you're saying and you seem incapable of understanding what everyone else is trying to say. Perhaps there is something else that you would like try and learn.

[smackdaddy]

Kodad,

Seriously. I get it. It just continues to amaze me that there is so little even-handedness in all this arm-chair quarterbacking of rescues. Obviously some people around here don't get that...though it's obvious to most of the other people.

What would you guys get if you applied the same level of scrutiny to this sailor and his every action and decision as you did Ronnie? And did it with the same attitude you did with him.

If you guys can be objective in your assessments, there's no room left for criticism of your methods.

[KODAD]

Smack,
The lack of even-handedness and objectivity is precisely what you don't understand. Maybe someday you will, maybe not. You seem to be an intelligent person, honestly, but it seems like you're beating a dead horse.

[sailingdog]

Smack-

The reason we're treating them unevenly is that they have earned different levels of respect or derision.

Ronnie went out with no bluewater experience and an uninspected, unprepared boat into "hurricane alley" during what may be the worst possible time of the year, and cried for mama and pulled his EPIRB tab when his boat wasn't sinking...and wasn't really even disabled if he had half a brain. He still had a rudder and rudder stock... all he needed was an emergency rudder—which he should have had aboard in the first place. He failed his boat...not the other way around.

Skip Allen, on the other hand, is a veteran open ocean racer with multiple bluewater passages on the boat he was using, he had had 60,000 miles of passages on that boat... it was well prepared and a known quantity—after 60,000 you better believe he knew the damn boat... and he went out of his way to try and avoid the worst of the weather and got caught in a freak storm, and the boat was damaged and the weather was going to get worse than what had already happened... and he made a decision to pull the tab on his EPIRB based on the fact that the boat was damaged, no longer seaworthy and that the conditions would only be getting worse. SO to prevent the SAR people from coming out in far worse conditions, he bailed early... not quite the same thing. Skip showed as much consideration for the SAR people as he did for himself... which can't be said of Ronnie.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

These were experienced sailors so one would assume that they had done their homework on weather given the time of year and the north atlantic.

Originally Posted by bubb2

Cam, We can't 2sd guess a seasoned Capt. and a well found boat.

Cam and Bubb,

These kinds of statements are what I'm talking about. They are truly perplexing in light of the starting place of judgement for other SAR events we've discussed. I'm just saying this kind of sentiment is not at all objective. Will the USCG (or other maritime orgs) begin investigations of such incidents with this kind of initial bias? I certainly wouldn't think so. But I'd love to hear from a coastie about that if there are any around here.

Another specific example is in Skip A's story. As a newbie, I've read here in many places that tethering to a rail is a very bad idea. Jody got a bit of the old dressing down for that one. Yet Skip did so in a serious storm according to his ship's log.

There just seems to be more nuance to all this than is being presented.