Sinking

[artbyjody]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Jody...perhaps the linguistic distinction is being TIED to the rail (bad idea) rather than clipped to the rail.

I never stated I was tied to the rail - other poster's did based on the video. The only things tied to my rails are well nothing - even my fenders are clipped on... And merely addressing since I was being used an example - and needed to set the facts straight...

[bubb2]

Jody, clipped or tied off I use the words the same. The idea of being tethered in is so you can't go overboard, not back over the stern rail not over the side rail not over anywhere. That is why I said your clip point should be in the center of the cockpit 6 feet away from the rail.

Wareing a harness under your foulies is not a good idea, as I said it will pull the jacket up over your face should you go overboard while tethered in. If you are tethered in then conditions must be rough, if you go over and hit you stern platform do you really think you will be able to get to your feet easily.

You can ware your inflatable under you jacket if you wish. I am speaking of harnesses. Personally I don't and have been in storms that lasted over 24 hours with out one popping off. But it is your call.

[camaraderie]

Jody....Understood....
Bubb...Also want to make clear that I totally agree that my analysis of weather and bilge pumps is pure speculation based on the little I can find about the incident and how experienced sailors would typically go to sea. Going below could have been based on the thought that lying ahull was the best decision given their ages and physical strength. They could well have had manual bilge pumps in operating condition and simply not been able to keep up with the water inflow after the roll. I do think it is safe to say that they had little warning of how bad the weather would turn.... and they were not foolhardy in that regard nor in their timing as this is the week the Caribe 1500 leaves also.
We may never know the true and final story so it is still useful to think about what might have caused the problems to try to avoid similar circumstances ourselves.

[bubb2]

Cam, those scenarios have crossed my mind also, and as you said we will never know.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by bubb2

Smack, I may be steamed, but it is about keeping guys like you alive, right or wrong.

Thanks Bubb. Seriously - I always appreciate your good advice. And I know it's life-saving stuff. Of course, if you strangle me in the mean time - it will be a bit counterproductive, eh?

BTW - a nice light sail tonight. When we hit 3 knots I deployed the drogue just for the hell of it. Went straight over the foredeck and into the jib. Almost spilled my drink!

[bubb2]

I went sailing also, I feel better. I did a little better than 3 knots.

[smackdaddy]

Cool. What did you get? And just remember Giu will call you on it and ask for pictures if it's anywhere near impressive.

[CalebD]

I went for a short sail with my friend from London and his 8 year old daughter this past Friday in W-NW winds that were light for this time of year (10 - 15). In my 19' Lightning every gust the boat felt and made the youngster nervous but 'mate' and I handled it well. Only PFD worn was by the 8 year old and the water is only about 60 F but it was sunny. We stayed in protected waters and had a ball of a fall quick sail. Planing over the water while admiring the changing foliage was superb fun for us in Lloyd Harbor.
I just finished re-reading a section of the John McPhee book "Looking for a Ship" where he talks about Plimsole marks on commercial shipping vessels and mentions many commercial (merchant marine) vessels that sank. Samuel (?) Plimsole was a a member of Parliament or the House of Lords or some such mucky-muck who came up with a way of trying to keep shipping safer by not allowing over loading of cargo. The lowest mark of any merchant marine vessels 'Plimsole' (which now means the type of shoe known as a sneaker over here) is labeled 'WNA' for 'winter North Atlantic'. These are the roughest seas known short of the roaring 40's (which are not used as much any more for shipping) so over burdening them by laiding (loading) too much cargo on them at this time of year will render them un-insurable. The insurance people know their statistics quite well and this system is still in effect for good reason. Check the NOAA sea state charts for the north Atlantic this season and you will see why they measure the wave heights in both meters on some charts (10 meters is about 34 ft).
Keep in mind that it should take a wave of about half your boat length that can roll or perhaps pitch pole you, although I suspect that it takes a bigger wave for pitch poling. You are not likely to see any waves of that size on a lake, unless it is one of the Great Lakes.
Risk and return. We take our boats out of the water up here now so we can put them back in in the spring. I am not sure why this boat and skipper chose to be so far offshore (even in a Swan) when one of the first serious winter storms hit our coast. There was more fresh water in my Lightning then I have ever bailed out before from this event. My Lightning is now on it's trailer in the woods at my sister's house, safe and sound. Next on my list is my Tartan 27' which is across from Bubb2 at Nyack, which comes out next weekend.
I am always amazed by the CG and the fact that they do rescue people in distress in horrible conditions such as we had a few days ago. Most here are sympathetic to those who know how to take care of themselves and know when to call for help. Trying to discern how much scorn this one versus that one gets on these forums is pointless. Sometimes people should just not leave the dock (this includes me and I have a pretty healthy respect for the weather and my lack of abilities and I do not like getting caught 'ass out').
Every day sailor should be prepared to get themselves out and back in without assistance if they are doing their homework. The same applies to every vessel. I suppose it is the amount of 'homework' that some people apply to their endeavors that some are critical of. To his credit, at least SnackDiddy is asking questions.

[sailordave]

The lowest mark of any merchant marine vessels 'Plimsole' (which now means the type of shoe known as a sneaker over here)

ROCK MY PLIMSOUL Lyrics
Rod Stewart
Listen!
You can rock me, rock me all night long.
Keep on rockin' me baby, rock me all night long.
'Cause you know what, when you rock me,
my poor back it ain't got a bone.

You can roll me, just like they roll the wagon wheel,
way down in the country.
Keep on rollin' me baby, roll me all night long.
You know, you can shake, rattle, and roll me,
till my back it ain't got a bone.
And I won't mind that! Yea!

Oww! ... Over here!
Keep on rollin' me baby, just roll me all night long,
I won't mind it.
Keep on rollin' me baby, roll me all night long.
'Cause you know what, when you shake, rattle, and roll me,
My old back ain't got a bone.
So will you do it?

Keep on rollin' me baby,
Rollin' me baby.
Any old way you choose it,
Keep on rollin' me.
Ha, ha. Keep rollin' me honey,
'Till my old back ain't, got a bone. Over there!

Rockin' me baby,
Rockin' me baby,
Rock me honey,
Rockin' me baby, whoa-whoa

I don't mind which way that ya', come on honey, keep on.
Rockin' me baby,
Rockin' me baby,
Keep on rockin' me baby,
You know you'd better keep on rockin' me all night long.
You can rock me baby, yeah, yeah, Oww!

[sailordave]

I personally just shake my head at "newbies" who jump into a new activity (whatever it is) and read all the books and start making judgements about things they really have no "real world" understanding of. I'm glad people use this forum, and I know there's a lot of "banter" that goes on, but geez, SMACK has 632 posts since he joined in Aug.. Maybe he should spend more time on the water instead of online. There are people on another forum I read that have in excess of 20,000 posts in just 5 or 6 years! I've got about 1400 on that forum and have been there for 8 years.

I am not attacking SMACK, just hoping maybe he'll back off a little bit and learn a bit.

And since SMACK answered my ? about experience I'll volunteer the same.
Sailing for 35 years, from frostbiting Lasers to crewing on a 12M delivery to a 47' catamaran offshore and others.
Racing to Bermuda. Gunkholing on the Chesapeake. Offshore deliveries, including one similar to what FREEFALL's fx was calling for. 9 days from FLA to St. Martin, all to windward, 4 days of 35 kts on the nose and 15-20' seas. (also in a Swan!)

Not much offshore time, only 7000 miles... built boats and canoes. Restored a couple woodies. So I guess I've got a little cred.