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  #121  
Old 11-01-2008
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Any visitor, and we have many "licence less" sailors from the US here, have come and have gone..the law here is clear..the rules of his country legislation regarding the handling of his boat applies...he can't however operate any other boat than the one he cam in...

Alex, my point I guess is that a law is only as good as the exemptions that apply to it. Whenever there is someone who is legally exempt from a regulation (in this scenario, me), it makes the regulation a little moot.

You see, in New Zealand there is no legal requirement for any formal training. And before there is an assumption that this fact leads to bad habits or poor seamanship, let's remember that NZ has had and continues to turn out some of the best sailors in the world.

Our dear friend Ronnie and I both have the same formal training - zip. We could both end up in Portugal (God forbid at the same time ) and be exempt from the legal requirement that binds you.

To me it's far more important that the vessel is brought under regulation and be made to comply to a standard. In NZ every sea-going vessel (including yours or SD's if you came here) is subject to an inspection by the maritime authority before you leave. Their view is that if you get into trouble, they have to come and fetch you so they reserve the right to determine the seaworthiness of your vessel. To me that makes a whole lot more sense than trying to regulate knowledge.
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  #122  
Old 11-01-2008
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Originally Posted by travler37 View Post


Instead of a licence i propose a DUMBASS fee.If something you do requires a rescue.You get BILLED FOR BEING A DUMBASS.
Geesh.. the problem with DUMBASSES is that they usually do not have money. So that is kinda like restructuring a "already broke system". DUMBASSES usually do not have actual money as evidenced in Ronnie - he had disposable income to buy HD video cameras but could not afford to do a survey...

I say let Darwin do its course and let the CG do a google search on the boat, skipper, etc when that emergency call is made and let them make the decision if you should be excluded from the Darwin theory...It works in politics and the media right ?
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  #123  
Old 11-01-2008
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Jody-

That's a bit harsh...funny, twisted, but harsh... unfortunately, evolution is broken in many ways... people who don't have the common sense to get out of the way of the truck get rescued from themselves...when in reality, they really should just be left alone to get run over...
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  #124  
Old 11-01-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T37Chef
Obviously I don't get your sense of humor.
Don't feel bad. Not too many do. However, I was not trying to be funny. I was being sarcastic.
I was saying that If we continue to give government control over the aspects of life that we have traditionally handled ourselves. Then soon even the freedoms that we hold sacred are going to start slipping away. Like the freedom to take your kid out of school, put him on a boat and sail across an ocean.

Here read my last post on the subject at hand and see if you are able to get my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;Knothead
CD, Now that I am feeling a little better, (SD was right, I just needed a little medication) let me have another crack at this.
I respect and truly admire your desire to make the world a better place.
I would really like to think that there could be steps taken to make our waterways safer.
Education and experience is what makes a person good at whatever they do. Oftentimes people exhibit a natural talent for certain disciplines and some are better at certain things than others. But most anyone can learn to drive and most everyone can learn to sail. Not sure about flying.
But let me ask you. What makes someone a good driver? If you ask me, the most important aspect is a person's temperament. Followed closely by their experience. Education is close behind.
If you want to see the waterways become safer, then befriend a stupid sailor. If, or should I say when, you come in contact with someone who needs some guidance and support, then give it to them. If they won't be helped then at least warn everybody else to keep an eye out.

Don't continue to live in a world where you can just maintain your little bubble of privacy and isolation and expect your government to protect you from every careless sailor, driver or pet owner.

People can learn to sail without the government's help. They can learn from their dad's. They can learn from their friends or their lovers. They can even learn to sail all by themselves.
But don't try to take away their freedom to learn their own way.

Do you know why we have welfare. We have welfare because we have failed as a decent people.
Families don't take care of families. Neighbors don't take care of their neighbors. Churches are more concerned about doctrine and legalism than about loving and caring for each other.
Even here on SailNet, people are content to judge and ridicule others before taking the time to listen and even pretend to try to make a connection.
We can have debates that go on for days on how to respond to the guy who makes a stupid first post while in the mean time he's already said screw it, I'm just going sailing.

On every level we are failing to take care of our own and You can't legislate the problem away.

The USHGA was the best model I've personally seen where a sport regulated itself. I haven't been involved for many years so I don't know how they are doing now but back in the day. You couldn't fly off a hill anywhere in the area without someone looking for the sticker on your helmet. While you were looking for his.
If we as sailors were better about regulating and supporting each other we could solve the perceived problem ourselves.

Please, don't advocate more government regulation. Let's just each try to be better sailors ourselves. And maybe better people too.

Don't try to legislate morality, and don't put the government in charge of something that we as people should be doing ourselves.

If you want to make the world a better place, then get your hands dirty. Open your hearts and try to understand that we are a pretty crowded little planet here and not everyone looks at things the same.

Last edited by knothead; 11-02-2008 at 07:50 AM.
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  #125  
Old 11-01-2008
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Originally Posted by T37Chef View Post
WTF...most of us, if not all drive a car everyday, how many boaters drive their boat everyday? Come on...are you serious?

I would be for licensing that would produce competent boaters, unlike what Maryland has in place, what a joke. If insurance & marinas would require the documentation as well I think that would help with monitoring it.
That's just the point there, Chef! And the reason I criticized the Dock Monitor for restarting this imbroglio. The whole thread is based on proposing a solution to a non-existent problem! If your odds of being involved in a boating accident resembled anything like that of an automobile accident then this thread might make sense. Although, based on our experience with driver's licenses, the question ought rather be why we continue to fund a driver's license program that does nothing tangible for safety. Yes, I am in favor of eliminating driver's licenses. They're a joke. Jokes should not be a part of public policy.

What started this thread was a desire to do something about people too dumb to know what they don't know and how that affects us through things like SAR. The short answer is that there is nothing we can do, we should resist the impulse to do something-even if it's wrong, and chalk up ouir SAR expenses for the rescuing of idiots to being just the cost of living in a democracy with great freedom. Which is pretty much the policy we have now.

I'll make it simple, once again, for those congenitally emotional. Licensing does not produce safety or good judgment; only experience does that.
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  #126  
Old 11-01-2008
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Sweet holy hockey pucks. Maybe CD is right to be concerned...



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  #127  
Old 11-01-2008
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pain,
we got video of that around here someplace. Sapper..line two for you!
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  #128  
Old 11-01-2008
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Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
That's just the point there, Chef! And the reason I criticized the Dock Monitor for restarting this imbroglio. The whole thread is based on proposing a solution to a non-existent problem! If your odds of being involved in a boating accident resembled anything like that of an automobile accident then this thread might make sense. Although, based on our experience with driver's licenses, the question ought rather be why we continue to fund a driver's license program that does nothing tangible for safety. Yes, I am in favor of eliminating driver's licenses. They're a joke. Jokes should not be a part of public policy.

What started this thread was a desire to do something about people too dumb to know what they don't know and how that affects us through things like SAR. The short answer is that there is nothing we can do, we should resist the impulse to do something-even if it's wrong, and chalk up ouir SAR expenses for the rescuing of idiots to being just the cost of living in a democracy with great freedom. Which is pretty much the policy we have now.

I'll make it simple, once again, for those congenitally emotional. Licensing does not produce safety or good judgment; only experience does that.
Holy crap - somebody pinch me. I actually agree with a lot of what you say above Sway.
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  #129  
Old 11-01-2008
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Originally Posted by N0NJY View Post
I would too. I was planning on taking ASA classes. Maybe I'll just put the boat in the water, put the mast up, raise the sails and see what happens, while reading my "How to Sail a Big Boat" book...



Hell, at least *I* will understand it even if the other dozens of folks on the lake don't know what a jib is from a mizzen mast.
Read a book on sailing and boating, You are in the upper 20% of intelligence on our water ways.
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  #130  
Old 11-01-2008
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Holy crap - somebody pinch me. I actually agree with a lot of what you say above Sway.
Holy Shite, someone should just lock this thread now. That's about as close to concensus as we're likely to get around here.

I've truely hear everything now!
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