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  #201  
Old 11-04-2008
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Is that really what you think? Well I've pissed more asphalt than you've driven and I have a drivers AND motorcyclist license - so I think I know a thing or two about not knowing how to drive. Good day to you sir.

Heh-heh.
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  #202  
Old 11-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post

350,000 miles...heck, I've got underwear with more miles than that!

And you've got the skid marks to prove it!!
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  #203  
Old 11-04-2008
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too funny, cam [vbg]
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  #204  
Old 11-04-2008
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Sway,

What a crock. If you think the US would be safer if we did not make people get a drivers license you have utterly lost it. iF you think the same with airplanes... I woudl love to see you hop on a plane with someone without a license.

Once again, I feel your perspecitve is from 300 feet in the air. Mine is eye level. This reeks of the whole 'stand up all night and watch your anchor' debate.

It is not just a license, it is an education. It is not some, "Pay $25 here and get your license". It is an involved educational program that allows you to operate the vessel you have been qualified for. It does not have to be some 12 month course, but I think it should be more involved than 5 multiple choice questions.

And like it or not, you drivers license test, which I assume you have, provided the basics for you to be a driver. Ther est you learned on the job. Same with you captains license. If you are telling me that you were just born with the ability to drive both boat and ship without any educational process, I would lvoe to see your proof for that.

How do we learn it now? How do we learn how to drive a boat now, rules of the road, navigation, piloting, safety, etc? We read a book, have someone else teach us, or just get out there and take a shot at it. It is the last section of people who endager lives.

I still wholeheartedly support licensing and mandatory education, where I see the two combined. Sorry. I do.

- CD
As usual, CD plays fast and loose with my argument in a futile attempt to bolster his own. I did not comment on the desirability or undesirability of licensing pilots, drivers, or merchant mariners. What I plainly said was that licensing, in and of itself, does not produce safety. That is not an argument for licensing or against licensing. I happen to be in favor of licensing the above three categories of operators.

I am not in favor of licensing, or certifying, boaters for many reasons not the least of which is the libertarian argument. But that takes a back seat to the fact that I see no evidence that the vast majority of boaters operate in nothing but a responsible manner.

You're willing to create an immense bureaucracy to solve a problem of small magnitude and significance. For instance, do you need one license/certification up to 20' and then an upgrade if you buy a thirty footer?

"...your driver's license test...provided the basics for you to be a driver." Actually, no it did not. Driver's ed. did that. For some it was accomplished by learning from Dad on the farm. The license was a few easy questions and a drive around the block with the road lieutenant coupled with a promise to learn how to parallel park.

I'm also reminded of something I heard about scuba diving. Novice divers suffer a disproportionate number of the air embolisms that occur in divers while the bends are suffered mostly by experienced divers. That both can become injured in what can be a hazardous sport is indisputable. But the nature of injury has little to do with certification and everything to do with experience.

I also hope you're not color blind...any reasonable license would preclude you from operating a boat, as it does receiving a USCG issued license. As rigorous as the CG license is, it only tests you on book or paper problems. You have to be able to reduce a sun line and noon observation and derive the latitude and longitude but you need show no evidence of actual ability with the sextant itself. Another words, all you're tested on is classroom knowledge. I'd submit that a crash jibe looks one way on paper, or in print, and quite differently on board.

Lastly I'd offer that the vast majority of accidents that happen are not a result of lack of license, lack of training, or even lack of experience. They are the result of simple misjudgments that developed into something much more consequential. Most of the guys I've rescued with fuel/water issues with their motor knew they had water in the fuel before they left! They figured they'd deal with it; then the wind came up!

And you know, I'm also getting that old feeling again about one of your posts. The one where one of the enlightened liberal persuasion is about to take away some of my basic liberties in pursuit of the greater good as viewed by himself and other's like him. I'm just waiting for you to ask, "what about the children?" You seem to have a pretty specific idea of just the right level of training for the sailor. I'm surprised at that because I have absolutely no idea of what level of mandated training is reasonable, and I'm not only licensed but have taught those seeking their license.

I don't care much that you mock my notions of a proper anchor watch. I do care that you blithely invoke the idea of licensing without an understanding that anyone licensing you is going to tell you that you must have a visual anchor watch and that solo sailing is inherently unsafe. But then, that's what you get when you invite the government in to regulate you. And we call those people who persist in thinking that it'll be different in this case liberals. Their faith in government knows no limits, nor any reality.
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  #205  
Old 11-05-2008
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This how it will work :

The boat owner will have to submit for a licence test, and that will have to involve both salt-water and freshwater navigation, real time. There will also be a written test.

Also, the boat will have to be submitted for a minimum safety standard, involving inspection, write-up and correction. They will have statutary right to board to check for it too, and to sieze the boat until it is corrected. Wait for the eyesight tests too, and declarations of state of health, and insurance, and you will need a wee sticker to display every year and tax.... yes, tax, tax, tax.... and a big fine to make sure you pay it.

Total cost, perhaps £500, perhaps double that. It will do wonders for participation!!!!!! Just imagine, only you can sail your boat!!!! You could not possibly sail someone else's boat. It might not be licensed. Rock on safety!!!!

You will have to carry your license with you too.

When you do, somehow remind yourself that you are less likely to be torpedoed by some boozy speedboat that crashes into you at 35 kt.

Not to worry.... if it happens, feel better that you have got a license already, and he did too.

Last edited by Rockter; 11-05-2008 at 04:31 AM.
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  #206  
Old 11-05-2008
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Sighhhhhhaway21. Okay - talk about pretzel logic, dude. Here's where you started...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
You get the license because you are competent; the license does not bestow competence.
Now that eye-opener got a break. Yes the word "bestow" buys you a little room - but not enough. But then, you jump on CD with your particular knack for smarminess - and I just felt the movement of that old FC spirit. So, yes, a couple of good points, but drastically overshadowed by more gordian thinking.

To wit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
As usual, CD plays fast and loose with my argument in a futile attempt to bolster his own. What I plainly said was that licensing, in and of itself, does not produce safety.

"...your driver's license test...provided the basics for you to be a driver." Actually, no it did not. Driver's ed. did that. For some it was accomplished by learning from Dad on the farm. The license was a few easy questions and a drive around the block with the road lieutenant coupled with a promise to learn how to parallel park.
Dude, one question...why is driver's ed currently necessary if not to prepare for a licensing test? Bing! CD wins this one. Bestow, require, whatever...the relationship works.

And then, I'm truly appreciative of the fact that you continue to illustrate my point in the Anti-BFS debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
I'm also reminded of something I heard about scuba diving. Novice divers suffer a disproportionate number of the air embolisms that occur in divers while the bends are suffered mostly by experienced divers. That both can become injured in what can be a hazardous sport is indisputable. But the nature of injury has little to do with certification and everything to do with experience.
Those experienced divers should know how to track time at depth by now shouldn't they? Especially if they hound the novices about getting those pesky embolisms! Experience doesn't seem to be helping those guys. Bing! Still CD's game.

But then, you turn around and start quoting me to prove your argument - without proper footnotes. Very disappointing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
Lastly I'd offer that the vast majority of accidents that happen are not a result of lack of license, lack of training, or even lack of experience. They are the result of simple misjudgments that developed into something much more consequential.
It's called the "cascade effect". And I appreciate the props, but....Bing! I think maybe I should get this point if you don't mind CD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
And you know, I'm also getting that old feeling again about one of your posts. The one where one of the enlightened liberal persuasion is about to take away some of my basic liberties in pursuit of the greater good as viewed by himself and other's like him. I'm just waiting for you to ask, "what about the children?" You seem to have a pretty specific idea of just the right level of training for the sailor. I'm surprised at that because I have absolutely no idea of what level of mandated training is reasonable, and I'm not only licensed but have taught those seeking their license.
It always comes down to politics with you. Surely you're not a one trick pony too? Bing! I think this point should go to.....ahm....TDW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
I don't care much that you mock my notions of a proper anchor watch. I do care that you blithely invoke the idea of licensing without an understanding that anyone licensing you is going to tell you that you must have a visual anchor watch and that solo sailing is inherently unsafe. But then, that's what you get when you invite the government in to regulate you. And we call those people who persist in thinking that it'll be different in this case liberals. Their faith in government knows no limits, nor any reality.
The wicked truth finally comes out! Now the question is whether solo sailors are predominately liberal or conservative. And I have no interest in discussing that one.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-05-2008 at 10:07 AM.
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  #207  
Old 11-05-2008
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One question for you Sway... and answer this carefully: What about the children???

You never think about the children.

HEHE!

- CD
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  #208  
Old 11-05-2008
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Oh God... I have Smackdaddy agreeing with me. Kinda like McCain on a photo shoot with George Bush...

Sorry, Smack. Just making fun.

- CD
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  #209  
Old 11-05-2008
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I know George McCain, I've served with George McCain, and you sir, are no George McCain!

BTW - which one am I in your analogy. And can you please drop the freakin' politics thing? We're all dyin' here!

Anyway - Sway's watching my posts to give me the final verdict on whether or not I'm a troll. I'm trying my best to be pleasant to a fellow troll. He just makes it so difficult!
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  #210  
Old 11-05-2008
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Trolls are trolls. You guys aren't trolls. lol

Trust me, I've battled my share.

But the licensing argument doesn't hold water and can't displace any. A license, whether for driving, flying, boating, being a plumber or an electrician, or like me a ham radio operator, does NOTHING at all to demonstrate your true abilities in real-world situations. Nothing.

Anyone and I mean ANYONE can pass a test, all they have to do is study and understand the basics.

Boating safety is a state of mind, just as is flying safety and driver safety.

Getting a license to drive, by the way, does NOT require "drivers training" in ALL states. Sorry, only some.

We're talking about something here that affects all people using boats. Not just US citizens. But incoming foreign boaters, and Americans going elsewhere.

The basic and bottom line here is putting a government in control of anything and everything you do. That's what CD is suggesting.

It's not something that *I* will go for. As for "dropping politics" - no, you really can't. That's what this is all about.

One man's beliefs is his politics. When HIS politics get in the way of MY politics then he's asking for trouble.

Just because ONE person likes something a certain way, to make him FEEL safer doesn't mean it will work, anyone else likes it, or that it is right.

Sorry.

I say no to any licensing requirements. So... there.

If someone else wants one, feel free to print one up.

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