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  #311  
Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxLnghrn View Post
Rick,
I completely understand your sentiments on government intervention, and basically agree with them. I would ask that you think about this in a slightly different way though. You have a hobby as a Ham Radio operator. In order to operate your station (excuse me if my terminology is off) you have educated yourself, shown competence and been granted a license. How would you feel if anyone with a spare $xxxx thousand dollars, could buy the equipment and start broadcasting on any channel they liked? Chances are there broadcasts wouldn't kill or injure anyone else (although it could if they tied up the wrong channel as often happens with VHF 16), but it would interfere with your pastime and may interfere with your ability to coordinate rescue efforts as I believe you posted you do.
Actually, I have mentioned this already - in a round-about sort of way. Anyone CAN go out and purchase any sort of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and do just what you said. In fact, they have done so. Could they kill someone? They might not be directly able to do so (unless they were flying say, radio controlled airplanes... by the way did you all know that you have to have a million dollars worth of insurance to do this? Did you know that you have to have a Ham Radio Operator's license for most of the transmitters, except the cheap crap?)

Could someone flying a small model plane kill someone? Yup.

So... my hobby is no different from boating in that respect. The only difference is, I borrow my spectrum from time to time, use it and give it back - just as you borrow the channel on the way out to the sea, and then give it back.

I have to be licensed not to borrow or use the radio - but to know when it is ok to use that spectrum and how not to interfere with other services on the air.

If there were no licensing (and by the way there are people who advocate NO LICENSING in ANY part of the RF spectrum!) then anyone could go willy nilly across and through the whole spectrum with dirty transmissions preventing everyone from using it.

I've already compared my licensing a bit with a "boaters license" - and to some extent I agree that there should be some kind of classes for safety. But that's all. Not a "license".

In the 1970s a young boy got on a ham radio and stated that he and his dad were in a car accident. They had crashed. The car was upside down, dad was either injured or dead and he was trapped in the car.

The broadcasts went on for days and days and finally faded out. I wasn't a ham in those days, but I understood what was happening.

The media began to believe it was a hoax. It took about two weeks before the calls died out completely.

The car, the dad and the perpetrator were never found. To this day, no one knows who the kid was, why he did it, but in the end he claimed to be starving to death.

This activity tied up search and rescue, helicopters, airplanes, the Civil Air Patrol and hundreds of searchers for many days, cost many thousands of dollars.

The point is - he had the equipment to cause the problems and he was most likely NOT licensed (if he was he'd have lost his license, been fined heavily and most likely he'd have been arrested for other legal issues). Because he had the equipment and was able to broadcast for so long on and off without being found, I think he probably had a lot education on how to avoid being found.

So - a little knowledge goes a long way, in both directions. I don't remember enough details about the incident to know if he was VHF or HF radio, but I suspect given my knowledge now it was HF.

I suppose - all in all - learning and knowing are all part and parcel to being safe in your respective and chosen hobbies. Don't forget there are dangers in RF radiation as well and part of our 'training' includes knowing something about that. But, it doesn't prevent me from doing something stupid if I chose to ignore either regulations or common sense.



Quote:
There is a definite line between too much government interference (which I believe has been crossed numerous times) and regulation of public areas for the general good. If you (public at large, not Rick or Mark specifically) want to kill yourself go ahead, however, when your ignorance places my family or me at risk, unfortunately, the government needs to step in and start regulating.

Michael
I think this right here is certainly part of the issue here.

We had a discussion on another site I frequent about someone shooting his bow and arrow in the back yard. The area was a rural area and the boys shooting the bow were being completely safe.

It turned out the neighbor didn't like weapons of any sort. He called the Sheriff. There was no law against what the boys were doing... so the neighbor who turned out to be on the country commission proposed a new "ordinance" to make it illegal to shoot bows and arrows. No one could see a reason to NOT pass the law.

The next time the kids were practicing, they were arrested.

Simple, easy fix. huh?
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  #312  
Old 11-06-2008
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In a way Rick, you are making my point for me. I agree that a license doesn't guarantee that the licensee will operate in a safe manner. But it does show that at least at one point in time the individual was able to demonstrate an understanding of the material considered most important. So if we agree that some sort of education should be mandated, I don't care if we call it a certificate of attendence, proof of educational attainment in the art and science of lighter than water homo sapien transport vehicles, or whatever. The fact remains, only an objective third party can establish the criteria (read not boat salesmen), and ensure that individuals on the water abide. This falls back to government organizations (or in a slightly more ideal world) private enterprise contracted to the government.

BTW, I did realize it took a million dollar policy to fly model airplanes, but I believe mine cost me about $50/year back when I flew them.

Michael
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  #313  
Old 11-06-2008
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"I think this right here is certainly part of the issue here.

We had a discussion on another site I frequent about someone shooting his bow and arrow in the back yard. The area was a rural area and the boys shooting the bow were being completely safe.

It turned out the neighbor didn't like weapons of any sort. He called the Sheriff. There was no law against what the boys were doing... so the neighbor who turned out to be on the country commission proposed a new "ordinance" to make it illegal to shoot bows and arrows. No one could see a reason to NOT pass the law.

The next time the kids were practicing, they were arrested.

Simple, easy fix. huh?"



This is also where we agree, ordinances like this are why I hate government intervention. They always seem to side with the vocal minority over the majority. But my question to you remains, should anyone be allowed to operate a HF radio, or only those that have demonstrated education to do so?
(eg would you want SD with his 28,000 posts on this site alone on your favorite radio frequency without any training? )

Michael
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  #314  
Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travler37 View Post
Iraq is a blown to crap country with no government Licencing..
Thanks for agreeing
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  #315  
Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxLnghrn View Post

This is also where we agree, ordinances like this are why I hate government intervention. They always seem to side with the vocal minority over the majority. But my question to you remains, should anyone be allowed to operate a HF radio, or only those that have demonstrated education to do so?
(eg would you want SD with his 28,000 posts on this site alone on your favorite radio frequency without any training? )

Michael
Anyone CAN operate a radio, without any training at all.

Allowed? Well, who's going to stop them?

About once a month WE the ham radio operators in this area are hit with illegally operated transmitters. They lock up and interfere, sometimes maliciously, with transmissions of legal operators.

It's against the law.

The FCC doesn't stop it.

Ham radio operators "SELF POLICE" meaning we track down and report the offenders.

I'm thinking, it works pretty well, since the FCC almost ALWAYS hands them a ticket after documentation.

In an emergency ANYONE can LEGALLY operate ANY transmitter, being that a Marine VHF, HF radio, Ham radio, Police Radio, Fire radio, ditch digger radio - don't matter, if it's an emergency. So, seriously the point is moot.

My thinking is, if there is such a problem in Texas that one person, a vocal minority, thinks it's time to license everyone and he's not researched the costs and complexities of this whole subject (as he freely admitted) then he is one loud voice and only one.

Furthermore he might be running a forum or moderating it or whatever, but that is not teaching safety classes. It's NOT self policing either.

He and other Mariners in the area ought to be forming a group to take down numbers on the little boats, big power boats and taking pictures of incidents and making POLICE reports to curtail the problem, LONG before anyone gets a government entity into the mess.

That's my point. If he hasn't done this then he has not exhausted all the possibilities yet.

In answer to your question, yes, I would LOVE to have CD or any of the rest of you on the air, and will gladly put you on the radio at my station. But, I would be supervising (control operator we call it) and you would still have to abide by regulations!

Why? because there are regulations. (And it's legal for me to act as control operator for '3rd party traffic' that is someone who is not licensed and doesn't have a clue).

Most of you, I would assume have some abilities at operating a radio though.

Were he to go on the air illegally? That's out of my hands.

But, we're also talking about a "Regulated Service" and not an unregulated leisure activity.
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  #316  
Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N0NJY View Post
Anyone CAN operate a radio, without any training at all.

However this is illegal

Allowed? Well, who's going to stop them?

About once a month WE the ham radio operators in this area are hit with illegally operated transmitters. They lock up and interfere, sometimes maliciously, with transmissions of legal operators.

It's against the law.

The FCC doesn't stop it.

Ham radio operators "SELF POLICE" meaning we track down and report the offenders.

You are reporting illegal activity.

I'm thinking, it works pretty well, since the FCC almost ALWAYS hands them a ticket after documentation.

In an emergency ANYONE can LEGALLY operate ANY transmitter, being that a Marine VHF, HF radio, Ham radio, Police Radio, Fire radio, ditch digger radio - don't matter, if it's an emergency. So, seriously the point is moot.

Fair enough, in an emergency, anyone should be allowed to operate a vehicle, watercraft or otherwise.

My thinking is, if there is such a problem in Texas that one person, a vocal minority, thinks it's time to license everyone and he's not researched the costs and complexities of this whole subject (as he freely admitted) then he is one loud voice and only one.

Furthermore he might be running a forum or moderating it or whatever, but that is not teaching safety classes. It's NOT self policing either.

He and other Mariners in the area ought to be forming a group to take down numbers on the little boats, big power boats and taking pictures of incidents and making POLICE reports to curtail the problem, LONG before anyone gets a government entity into the mess.

So notifying the police wouldn't be involving a government entity?

That's my point. If he hasn't done this then he has not exhausted all the possibilities yet.

In answer to your question, yes, I would LOVE to have CD or any of the rest of you on the air, and will gladly put you on the radio at my station. But, I would be supervising (control operator we call it) and you would still have to abide by regulations!

And I love to have individuals operating my boat (under my supervision) that do not have a full understanding of the rules of the road/regulations.


Why? because there are regulations. (And it's legal for me to act as control operator for '3rd party traffic' that is someone who is not licensed and doesn't have a clue).

Most of you, I would assume have some abilities at operating a radio though.

Were he to go on the air illegally? That's out of my hands.

But, we're also talking about a "Regulated Service" and not an unregulated leisure activity.
So you are okay with the government "regulating" one of your hobbies, but not another. This is exactly my point, you have come to accept and appreciate the regulation of HF radio to the point that you report unlicensed operators or those violating a set of standards, yet you oppose the government turning another of your hobbies into a regulated endeavour. Activity number 1 (HF radio) has limited chance to cause physical harm to another when improperly used, Activity number 2 (sailing/boating) has a much higher chance of causing morbidity/mortality
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  #317  
Old 11-06-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxLnghrn View Post
Thanks for agreeing
Ben there,
Still a place with alot of good people in it.They just dont have a LICENCE
Mark
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  #318  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
People can cause damages far more than they are personally worth. I carry insurance in case for some reason I don't see a stop sign and run into a school bus.

Where I live if you are stoped and can not provide proof of insurance you get your license pulled.
Well hey neighbor,
Seems we live in the same state.

When i was 16 years old living in Minesota it was not mandantory.When i was 17 in same state turned mandantory.At 18 prices doubled for same vehicles/coverage.

So now am a older fart paying way to much for way to little coverage and wishing for the good old days WHEN IF I WORRIED ABOUT IT I INSURED IT.If it was totalled was my opsy for not insuring it.MY FAULT for not paying premiums.Not me paying for insurance and also paying for
uninsured motorist...as in car insurance.

Notices you ignored how we can all be safe.Nice try.
Mark
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  #319  
Old 11-07-2008
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Didn't Cicero drive an REO 6X6 through Bacuba back in the day? Or was it a Buffalo MPV?
He has a timeshare in Boca now. He drives a Rascal.
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  #320  
Old 11-07-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxLnghrn View Post
So you are okay with the government "regulating" one of your hobbies, but not another. This is exactly my point, you have come to accept and appreciate the regulation of HF radio to the point that you report unlicensed operators or those violating a set of standards, yet you oppose the government turning another of your hobbies into a regulated endeavour. Activity number 1 (HF radio) has limited chance to cause physical harm to another when improperly used, Activity number 2 (sailing/boating) has a much higher chance of causing morbidity/mortality
No... not at all. As I stated, and you apparently missed, the two things are not the same.

Boating, as a commercial interest requires licensing. That already is there.

There are also regulations regarding rules of the road, safety etc. The regulation is ALREADY THERE.

Using any frequency on the spectrum isn't regulated by the US GOVERNMENT, it's regulated by an international organization called the International Telecommunications Union.

The ITU standardizes the use of an a renewable natural resource - the radio frequency spectrum. Licensing is an international requirement that has been around since about 1912. This was to identify stations. Prior to that, amateurs as well as "professionals" made up call signs.

In 1927 the forerunner of the ITU came into existence to help straighten out the world of call signs, especially Maritime stations, ships, shore stations and to set some international regulation to assist in emergency operation. HMS Titanic is one of the first ships to have actually used a distress call in 1912 and the idea was to later, make it easier to get assistance. That's how regulation of radio waves began.

The regulation covering your SSB transceiver on your boat is based on international law regulations, just as my Amateur Radio call sign regulation is based on international law.

In the case of radio, we're talking about STANDARDIZATION of the USE of a natural resource which has implications internationally if you want to use HF radio.

In the case of a boat, sitting in Tampa Bay, or the Gulf of Mexico being a US flagged boat simply means you're in both US territorial waters (and therefore do NOT affect France, Germany or anywhere in Australia - UNLESS you key your HF transmitter) and you're subject to LOCAL LAW.

Therefore, in terms of "captain's license" the USCG and US Code requires that those who are operating "for pay" be licensed.

There's nothing in the law about licensing pleasure craft (which most of you admit your boats are precisely that) except as STATE laws indicate.

So - you're arguing two entirely separate and unrelated issues here.

My use of an HF radio can affect people internationally (and could indeed interfere with distress calls, thereby being the cause of death were I to operate the station with such disregard).

The use of your boat affects local people only.

I think if you want to get a Captain's License, you should.

I think if you want to be called "Skipper" or "Captain" you can be TRADITIONALLY if you are the master of your ship.

I think if you are speeding recklessly through a harbor with complete disregard for the safety of others that someone needs to call the cops on your ass and have you arrested based on the laws of the local state and jurisdiction and not apply one person's personal issues to every man, woman or child who sails a boat.
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