Boating, Passagemaking, and Licensing - Page 8 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #71  
Old 10-31-2008
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mobile Liveaboards
Posts: 9,894
Thanks: 3
Thanked 97 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
CD,
Figures don't lie, but liars are always figuring.

Get real! The odds, and the odds are what we're really talking about here, are that you will be involved in a serious car accident some time in your lifespan. I didn't say injured or killed, I said involved. The odds are that you will never be involved in a serious boating accident in your lifespan.

You need a different argument.

You might look for one in the last thread we had on this....a few months ago!
Oh, give me a break Captain Tonnage. I actually thought you, with your Masters License et all, might see tghe benefit in others being educated (and having to pass a test). Maybe if they were all licensed, you might have your way and get everyone to sit up all night watching their anchors bob.

Now, print something useful or go buy a cleat and some super glue. (smile)

- CD
__________________
Sailnet Adminstrator & Moderator
Catalina 400 Technical Editor

2004 Catalina 400, Sea Mist IV (our boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in S FL and Keys primarily)
1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #72  
Old 10-31-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 2,010
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 9
PalmettoSailor will become famous soon enough
I'm trying to understand what CD thinks a certficate like a pilot certificate (we don't have licenses)would have prevented in Ronnies case. He could have got the certificate, and still gone to sea in an unprepared boat, and unless the standards were pretty darned high for a recreational boater, would still have damn little of the knowledge a bluewater sailor should possess.

Private, Commercial, and ATP rated pilots kill themselves doing stupid stuff in airplanes all the time, despite having spent years of their time and $10's of thousands of dollars to aquire their ratings. Despite the expense and difficulty in obtaining them, pilot certficates have not barred idiots from becoming pilots and they likewise wouldn't prevent idiots from becoming boaters.

The only real difference is, idiot pilots generally kill themselves (and too often their unsuspecting passengers), before anyone can get hurt trying to rescue them from their stupidity. Unfortunately, a boaters bad decsions are more often revealed over a prolonged episode, providing time for non-idiots to get hurt or killed trying to save them from the process of natural selection.
__________________
PalmettoSailor
s/v Palmetto Moon
1991 Catalina 36
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #73  
Old 10-31-2008
N0NJY's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 795
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
N0NJY is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
And what is a boat in that figure?? A canoe a boat? A kayak? Like I said, real figures. I don't see how you feel that a boat is not more dangerous than a car. And again... you haver to be licensed for a car.

- CD
What difference does it make? You were saying cars don't count, but you brought up mopeds! LOL

Come on man, pick a spot and stand it so I can hit you with tomatoes.

Seriously, Boats is Boats. That is the number of boats in this country according to some good stats I found.

I suggest you do some more looking.

Your alias here is "CruisingDad"... that lets me assume you've got kiddies with you.

Do they operate the boat at all? Do they know how? Have you taught them to take over if something happens to you other adults on the boat?

Are they competent? Do you think they are? Can the become competent?

Can you see where I am going with this. if they are under 18 yrs old in this country they are considered minors (unless you're a Liberal and guns are involved then they can be as old as 29 for statistics... figure that one out).

If they are minors under 16 (15 in some states) they can't even get a learners permit to drive a car. If they are 13 do you think they could be considered competent to drive a boat (Any boat, sail boat, row boat, power boat)?

If so, then are could they legitimately be competent at the age of 8 or 7 or even 6? If NOT then why should they even BE on a boat?

Let's get serious now. Something happens to you and the other adults on the boat. What do the kids do if they are 9 and don't have a 'boat drivers license' because they couldn't get a "learner's permit" and now they have to ILLEGALLY drive the boat to get you and others to safety?

Will you be fined? will they? and on and on.
__________________
Rick Donaldson, NØNJY

moˈloːn laˈbe!

It's better to be hated for who you are, than to be loved for who you're not.

Let those winds of change blow over my head,
I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead - Jimmy Buffet
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #74  
Old 10-31-2008
Thanks Courtney.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 3,953
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 10
T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about
Why should you have to have a license to operate a boat? Because you are a liability to yourself and others. Let me emphasize the others part... I personally don't care if someone is a liability to themselves. Sorry, just a bit of natural selection so don't count those.

Regarding more boating driving accidents versus boating accidents, that is not a valuable statistic because: You are not showing a percentage of boat drivers/accidents to car drivers/accients. Also, I see the ski boaters smacking trailers all the time or the PWC'ers banging up their watercraft. Are those reported? However, what percentage of car acidents are reported?Ah, you're the one asking to implement change (Mr. Obama) the liability of showing statistics as a percentage of the whole is yours. If you hit your garage door while pulling in do you report it to the police? Then why would a PWC have to report it if they bang it up? I think you're taking this big brother thing way too far.


And again, you cannot go buy a moped and drive it in our country without a license. Why in the world would you let people have a 10 ton killing machine??Actually you can. In most states mopeds and scooters below a certain HP do not require a license. (I thing it is 50-80 cc cut off)


And another thing, when I say a license, you guys seem to keep thinking about some crappy little drivers license course. I say, with increased tonnage, its gets serious - more like a Catpains License or similar. As far as I am concerned, make it the same test as with a 6pack. Have it administered and written by the USCG. Again, who is going to enforce this?????

It would work. I have seen the bow ripped off a boat. I have seen a sunk boat with people hanging on. I have seen a burning boat. I have seen countless trailering accidents. Make them have a license, period. You want to weed out stupidity? Here's your chance.I've seen cars with the front ripped off, burning, and even underwater with people sitting on the roof. And that was just this week!!!!! All owned and operated by licensed drivers. Didn't stop anything. BTW- You gotta stop hanging out at those Catalina Owners get togethers, its clouding your judgement.
__________________
hunter Legend 37 Semper Paratus
Formerly - Tartan 34C Yawl
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #75  
Old 10-31-2008
Omatako's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 2,376
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 11
Omatako will become famous soon enough
I don't know about the US but in Auckland, there is a launch ramp on every beach there are literally hundreds of them. And every third driveway has a boat of some sort parked on it. On a good Sunday there are hundreds of boats fishing, skiing, sailing, just sight seeing, who controls this? Who stops these boats and checks that they're licenced? I guess like with cars, we wait till someone dies then we check licences so that we can feel good about kicking someone's @ss.

While our CG does encourage education, there is no legal obligation here. However, if you screw up there WILL be a thorough investigation and whoever is responsible WILL be held accountable.

What about the 8-year-old kid who starts on his Optimist off his local beach then migrates to something bigger, gets a spot crewing on a racing boat and sails actively with good mentors for 15 years before he gets his own boat. He needs to get a licence?

Then what about the cruising visitor to the US or Portugal for that matter? What if the country he comes from doesn't have the same licence requirement? Does he have to do a local licence? Or do they just say "Nah, he'll be OK"? And don't say that he's crossed an ocean, he should be good, Ronnie may have made it to your shores!!

No, I don't support any official licencing because it will end up being revenue generation with no further benefits and each sailor should be responsible for his own education. Just my view.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

__________________

"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

Arthur C. Clarke
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #76  
Old 10-31-2008
N0NJY's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 795
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
N0NJY is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Ah, you're the one asking to implement change (Mr. Obama) the liability of showing statistics as a percentage of the whole is yours. If you hit your garage door while pulling in do you report it to the police? Then why would a PWC have to report it if they bang it up? I think you're taking this big brother thing way too far.
Due to the "change in lifestyle" my wife and I are going through - as well as the current political crap.. er sorry, I mean... "change"... we are naming our new-to-us-never-been-named boat "Winds of Change".

Thank you.

No, I don't like Obama and won't vote for him

I WILL "vote" for "change" though if he tries to tax me or touch my IRAs as he recently promised....
__________________
Rick Donaldson, NØNJY

moˈloːn laˈbe!

It's better to be hated for who you are, than to be loved for who you're not.

Let those winds of change blow over my head,
I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead - Jimmy Buffet
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #77  
Old 10-31-2008
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Georgia
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Skipper519 is on a distinguished road
These postings have all expressed several good points. I myself do not favor a boating license, but would accept one if the licensing fees would be reserved for upgrading our waterways, i.e. the ICW and not just added to general revenues. However, before we as a country contemplate regulating the recreational boating community I believe we should be regulating the large financial and lending institutions much more strictly first. I am in favor of severe penalties including substantial fines and prison time for offenders.
I don't mean to take this discussion off topic; my point is regardless of your opinion of boating licenses there are other higher priority areas which require government regulations first.
__________________
Skipper519
Southeast Coast
Hunter
1984
34'
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #78  
Old 10-31-2008
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Oh, give me a break Captain Tonnage. I actually thought you, with your Masters License et all, might see tghe benefit in others being educated (and having to pass a test). Maybe if they were all licensed, you might have your way and get everyone to sit up all night watching their anchors bob.

Now, print something useful or go buy a cleat and some super glue. (smile)

- CD
Sweetie,
The reason being that I've offered nothing constructive is that I engaged in the last thread on the subject not so long ago and, unlike some, didn't restart a thread just to reiterate what I'd already said.

Having said that, I'll shorten it up for you and replay it. Any license worth the paper it's printed upon you probably couldn't pass. But what the heck do I know? I only spent four years in one of the country's toughest academic institutions whose sole purpose is to graduate people with those types of licenses. Oh yeah, it then took five years of sea time and three more license upgrades before I could serve as the vessel's master. Not five years; five years at sea! Or do you actually believe that the driver's license program we have produces safe drivers? Or does experience produce safety?

Yeah, I'm in favor of education. We can't teach our kids to read, write, or do arithmetic and you think we'll get 'em up to speed on the RoR?

If your anchor is bobbing you mistook your fishing pole for your bowsprit again. You gotta lay off the Beaumont homemade hooch! (g)
__________________
“Scientists are people who build the Brooklyn Bridge and then buy it.”
Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #79  
Old 10-31-2008
Thanks Courtney.
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 3,953
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 10
T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about T34C has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
I don't know about the US but in Auckland, there is a launch ramp on every beach there are literally hundreds of them. And every third driveway has a boat of some sort parked on it. On a good Sunday there are hundreds of boats fishing, skiing, sailing, just sight seeing, who controls this? Who stops these boats and checks that they're licenced? I guess like with cars, we wait till someone dies then we check licences so that we can feel good about kicking someone's @ss.

While our CG does encourage education, there is no legal obligation here. However, if you screw up there WILL be a thorough investigation and whoever is responsible WILL be held accountable.

What about the 8-year-old kid who starts on his Optimist off his local beach then migrates to something bigger, gets a spot crewing on a racing boat and sails actively with good mentors for 15 years before he gets his own boat. He needs to get a licence?

Then what about the cruising visitor to the US or Portugal for that matter? What if the country he comes from doesn't have the same licence requirement? Does he have to do a local licence? Or do they just say "Nah, he'll be OK"? And don't say that he's crossed an ocean, he should be good, Ronnie may have made it to your shores!!

No, I don't support any official licencing because it will end up being revenue generation with no further benefits and each sailor should be responsible for his own education. Just my view.
And in the US with our tendancy to cater to the lowest common denominator the test would have to be structured so that the illiterate could pass it. And the blind, deaf, guy in a wheel chair, guy with no arms, guy who just got released from prison (we'll call him smacky-), etc.... The test would amout to having to identify a boat by picture from other types of transportation. Multiple choice: A) car B) plane C) boat D) train
__________________
hunter Legend 37 Semper Paratus
Formerly - Tartan 34C Yawl
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #80  
Old 10-31-2008
CrazyDream
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Matt Galo is on a distinguished road
I'll chime in..

I don't think that comparing a drivers license for a motor vehicle and a license for operating a boat are the same. It's been said here... it's about the liablity to yourself and others. Well, to that point. There are hundreds and thousands more chances on a daily basis to injure yourself or others driving a car every single day. I don't think even the busiest waterways are close to the kind of traffic we face on the streets of our major metropolitan areas.

I do however see the point in getting boaters educated on the same level to a degree. I just don't think is should be through a license.

It would make a lot more sense to require one to pass an exam before registering a vessel though.

The idea for this thread came out of another thread dealing with SAR and the fact that any old "Joe" can fire up the EPIRB and everything else that comes along with it. Point being, which no one has really mentioned except Cat in post #7.

In order for someone to purchase and register the EPIRB they should pass an exam and the vessel should be inspected. I don't own one so I'm not really sure what's involved. But, I would imagine that the EPIRB is associated with the vessle that it's on, right?

If you're going to go sailing around the world or big passage making and would need the EPIRB as a last resort to save you if you can't save yourself. Then you should be held to a higher degree than say just sailing around in local waters. i.e. greater level of education, respect, and responsibility to what's involved!
__________________
1973 Jensen Ranger 26
#381
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.