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Boating, Passagemaking, and Licensing

27K views 338 replies 45 participants last post by  CapnBilll 
#1 ·
I think many of us have been following the adventures of Ronnie. If not, take a peek at this thread: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...-related/47882-bfs-proponent-rescued-sea.html

We have discussed licensing on this board many times. I bring it up again now as this is a perfect example of leaving the shore unprepared and not equipped for the passage ahead. I have read many threads lately on this board and get the feeling that some people wake up one day, decide to sail around the world, purchase something that floats... and are on their way. Either they are too ignorant of the sea or do not care about the potential impacts on life, possessions, or money to take the time to be a responsible boater. In essense, they could care less about seamanship.

Some of these people make it. Fortune smiled on them. Some are killed. The others rely on the technologies of today (EPIRB, for example) for someone to come and save them. It is these people that primarily concern me.

I for one have weighed the whole licensing issue for some time and have finally come to the conclusion that it is warranted. I think the licensing should be based upon length/tonnage. I feel it should include PWC and bass boats and ski boats. They are not immune from being killed by the water.

I realize many of you dissagree with this as you are likely those that have taken the time to apprecaite the sea. You value seamanship. You realize your lack of preparation or education can kill yourself or others. However, there are many people that do not and will never care unless forced to take some responbsibility for their actions. I feel a license is that first step. You cannot fly a plane without a license. You should not be able to drive a boat without a license. Is a plane really that much more dangerous that it should require a license while a boat should not? I do not think so.

THoughts?

- CD
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Unfortunately, the government is not well suited to judging who is and isn't capable of boating safely, and as such will tend to set the bar fairly low. Unless all of the fees from the boater licensing process are going to improving waterway infrastructure and safety... I'm really not in favor of wasting more money on the government.

As for the comparison of a plane to a boat... planes always fall out of the sky if the fuel runs out or you do something majorly wrong. Boats do not always sink, nor do they always hit someone else... comparing a boat, especially a sailboat, which generally has a relatively low top speed, to a plane is sheer fallacy. With the exception of multihulls and some of the larger boats, like GUI's, most of the sailboats found out there are going to be lucky to get up past seven or eight knots... Not exactly fast enough to be a menace in most cases.

Licensing and mandatory education for powerboats, which have the ability to get up to ridiculous speeds, where control and skill is a factor, especially on things like PWC, would make far more sense.

When was the last time you heard of a fatality involving a speedboat and a sailboat, where the sailboat killed someone on the powerboat and the sailboat was at fault???
-Never, at least as far as I've heard.

When was the last time you heard about a powerboat killing someone on a sailboat, where the powerboat was at fault-Clear Lake, Ca; Buzzards Bay, MA; etc.. that's far too common.
 
#13 ·
Sailboats can kill people too. I remember reading not too long ago about a sailbnoat strking another sailboat at night while at anchor and killing almost everyone who was down below asleep (because they were anchored at night). Also, should I bring up our friend Ronnie or others that have followed in his footsteps??

Putting together a license like we use for cars would not be the most helpful thing in the world... but it would help. It would stop the impulse boaters. I dissagree with anyone who thinks it would not help some. At least they might learn rightr or way and basic navigation.

However, I think for boating, it should be as stringent as flying or like a 6 pack/captain's license. I think it should be involved based upon the tonnage you carry. I think for a ski boat... a "drivers license" type of license. For a large Sea Ray, a tonnage type of license.

- CD
 
#5 ·
Licensing doesn't work with cars and it won't work with boats. The old line, being certified does not mean you are qualified. If this was untrue then the death rate of teenage drivers would not be the highest in percentages.

Some people buckle up and some people don't, but when they get into a crash they both call 911.

That being said, I am all for more boating education as I feel it is the only way things will get better and safer.
 
#149 ·
I like this idea! If you want to risk your life operating a several thousand pound wind/engine powered piece of equipment against some of the most severe elements nature can through at you, have a good time but don't take others with you (e.g. the nuts climbing Everest without adequate training). If, on the other hand, you expect to have access to emergency rescue care and ask others to risk their life for you, at least prove you have made the effort to obtain the knowledge and experience to accomplish what you are attempting. Why not license EPIRB's?
 
#12 ·
I agree wholeheartedly. Licenses will solve the problem. It's works so well with vehicles after all.
I also agree with your other post about having survivors sit through a tribunal so that a bunch of strangers can second guess every decision they made in a life threatening situation before activating the epirb.
Oh, only landowners should be allowed to vote too.:hothead
 
#15 ·
I'm afraid I'm in agreement with most here. Certification and licensing are not anything helpful in many cases.

Certainly if someone is providing a SERVICE we all want to be assured they are qualified and competent and definitely "requiring" them to pass a TEST to get their license is one thing.

If you're going to carry paying passengers, I can certainly see the need.

However, if you're like me and all I want to do is get out from under already stifling regulation in everything I do then licensing people to "drive a boat" is silly.

On the other hand I've no problem with someone taking a boating safety course and so forth. The Coast Guard offers them I noted on a couple of sites I was just reading.

I'm in the IT/Security field these days. The GOVERNMENT is starting to REQUIRE you have good old Microsoft Certified Security Engineer certifications. This is the most idiotic thing they can do at this time in history.

Computers are everywhere, and everyone 'drives them'.

It isn't the people like me who maintain networks and physical security systems that NEED THE TRAINING! It's the USERS. But are the users being required to have certification? They are the ones who get the viruses. They are the ones that pour coffee in my remote access panels. They are the ones who break things.

Why do *I* need a certification to prove I can (and have been for years) maintain(ing) the equipment?

No... licensing boaters with a drivers license is a silly idea.

The Government can't even take care of it's own "ship" - what makes them or anyone else think they can make me "better take care of mine"?

Government needs to get the HELL out of my life and everyone elses.

The job I do is protect this country. I do it in the background, without asking ANYONE for help. The government needs to take a long, hard look at the lessons the military can teach them. Do your job, do it in the background, keep the bad guys out, and leave the people ALONE.
 
#24 ·
Legislating problems doesn't fix problems. Period.

You're all about to find that out depending on the elections in the next few days.
 
#31 ·
Between my wife and I who are both avid (and damned good) shooters, we have nearly two dozen guns.

I have thousands of rounds of ammo for these weapons.

I carry a gun almost daily on my person.

I have never shot and killed anyone with a personally owned weapon.

( I can't say the same in regards to a personally carried and government owned weapon..... sorry).

It has never been my intent to use a gun in any manner it wasn't intended and practice safety with them.

I'm not "licensed" to "own or use guns".

Should I be?

I do have a "concealed carry permit" that enables me to walk around armed without anyone know it.

On the other hand, our state laws do not prohibit the open carrying of weapons in most areas (there are a couple of idiotic places like Denver and Boulder where they are so afraid of guns they've even tried banning them from cops... /sigh)

So... my point is thus - my guns have never killed anyone. In fact, nearly everyone I know with a weapon has NEVER killed anyone and yet certain people would like to legislate my guns out of my hands.

Why is that?

Why license my guns? What is it stopping?

Ok, same question on boats now.

if people are MOSTLY safe and secure in the use of their boats - why would you want to create more laws to interfere with your own self?

Because you take the time to be safety conscious and do what you're supposed to do - they should make a law to force "common sense" on people?
 
#29 ·
Listen CD, I never said it wasn't silly.

I said if you're going to compare things, then realize that ALL things are dangerous to some extent, and if that is the case, then ALL things should be registered, legislated, locked, put in safes, and licensed.

It's a ridiculous concept - which is my point - A boat is NOT more dangerous than a car.

I'll explain. How many times have police officers ever shot a boat driver dead because he attempted to run them down with the boat? A handful of times?

People are killed by police more than a dozen times a year in the US because a dumbass attempted to drive a car over a cop.

That ALONE makes a car dangerous and the driver STUPID.

If I learn all I can learn about boating and I take my boat out carefully and thoughtfully, and I take the time to make sure my safety gear is checked and functional and I don't do anything "stupid" I should be fine. Certainly accidents happen and I can't stop some one else from doing a dumb thing and colliding with me.

I can't do anything about it on the "high seas" except attempt to avoid collision.

I can't do anything about it on the "High WAY" except attempt to avoid collision.

But, CARS go FASTER than boats.

Further more:

The average number of US traffic fatalities during the 2001 to 2005 calendar period is 42,873.

I can't give you exact numbers on airplane fatalities, because there's apparently not a precise count in any one place - but in the US alone, there are on average between 21,000 and 40,000fatalities in cars ( no exact count as there are varying figures at various sites.

For planes:

Year/Accidents

1988 30/ 1989 28/ 1990 24/ 1991 26/ 1992 18/ 1993 23/ 1994 23/ 1995 36/ 1996 37/ 1997 49/ 1998 50/ 1999 51/ 2000 56/ 2001 46/ 2002 41/ 2003 54/ 2004 30/ 2005 40/ 2006 33/ 2007 26/

Basically, it appears in my quick research that there are about 200 deaths per year (on average) associated with flying.

According to one site in the year 2000 there were 791 fatalities - and over 4000 injuries. Not all boating accidents are reported and less than 10% of all accidents result in fatalities.

So... in that respect, flying in a plane or riding in a boat are about "the same" on average - but cars are vastly more dangerous.

Is boating really that much less dangerous than flying a plane?? Licensing will not suddenly stop the idiots nor will it suddenly stop all fatalities. However, it would help.
No it won't help. You can't make a law about everything, nor do you want to. There's already too damned much governmental interference in EVERYONE's lives.

You cannot even do that with a car... and a boat is much more dangerous than a car. Yet you are required to have a license with a car. With a boat?? Nothing.
According to the simple and quick research I did, you're incorrect. Boat is NOT more dangerous than driving a car.
 
#30 ·
CD - Though it may shock you, I plan on going through the various ASA certifications this spring and summer in preparation for cruising the gulf in the very near future. I know I don't have to (I mean PB didn't for crying out loud) - and I think I would probably get a more thorough education if I crewed with many of the sailors here for a while, but I don't have that kind of time yet. And no one here would let me on their boat. So there's that.

So, personally I'm all about the licensing idea because it will teach me a lot in a shorter period of time. Then maybe I'll crew prior to my big jaunt when I actually know how/when to deploy a drogue and not just use it as a big clothes hamper.

But believe me, those instructors will be praying to get me off their boat by the end of these courses cause I'll continually heckle the hell out of them about sailing with stones. Now that will be fun!
 
#39 ·
CD - Though it may shock you, I plan on going through the various ASA certifications this spring and summer in preparation for cruising the gulf in the very near future. I know I don't have to (I mean PB didn't for crying out loud) - and I think I would probably get a more thorough education if I crewed with many of the sailors here for a while, but I don't have that kind of time yet. And no one here would let me on their boat. So there's that.
You mean you plan on attempting to get the various ASA certifications... :) Whether you can and do remain to be seen... I'd bet against it at the moment though... :laugher

So, personally I'm all about the licensing idea because it will teach me a lot in a shorter period of time. Then maybe I'll crew prior to my big jaunt when I actually know how/when to deploy a drogue and not just use it as a big clothes hamper.

But believe me, those instructors will be praying to get me off their boat by the end of these courses cause I'll continually heckle the hell out of them about sailing with stones. Now that will be fun!
Licensing doesn't give a person common sense or experience... and lots of people have licenses that have no business driving....don't see that changing with boaters just cause they license boats.
 
#34 ·
Anytime bubb... just looking out for my friends.. :)
 
#35 ·
Licensing and mandatory education for powerboats, which have the ability to get up to ridiculous speeds, where control and skill is a factor, especially on things like PWC, would make far more sense.
I missed that.

Sure let's license people with boats that go over, say, 7 knots. :)
 
#41 ·
Let's make it an even 10 then. LOL

(I hope people see the humor in this and understand that attempting to set some kind of limits will involve this VERY sort of thinking from people who DON'T KNOW CRAP about boats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Come on, our Legislators really DON'T for the most part know anything about boats, airplanes, cars, or bicycles. Do we REALLY want them setting the standards and limitations?
 
#37 ·
#38 · (Edited)
I come from a place where if you want to use a boat, you need to go to a boat school, learn stuff, then seat exams..the courses depend, but go from 3 months from the basic Sailing permit (sail within 12 miles of the harbour, boats not longer than 35 feet, less than 70HP). then as you need to get further away or move up in boat, you need other courses.

If you get caught outside your "water" bubble, or with a boat different from what you are qualified, boats gets arrested by NAVY (allways NAVY, or MAritime Police, never Government)..but you are free to go..

This system is in place as far as I remeber, I have a Skipper's licence given to me at age 16, had to wait to be 18 to do the rest..Fred is now sailing under a "minor Competitive waiver" given by his club, but had to show he is preofficient to sail alone.. Fred can't go more than 6 miles out, and must be with the other kids, who are followed by a coach.

While I understand my American friends feeling that the licence maybe a cut of freedom...let me just tell you this..

Howe many boating accidents, or "Ronnie's" stories you hear coming from our side of the Ocean?

For the record, my licence, was given to me after I sat the exams and went to sea with an instructor, and the Government doesn't care where I go or what I do..They are re-issued after 10 years, time on which you just request a new one..

No one including the government controls me..but for sure..it makes me happy to know that the idiot with the 45 foot Sea Ray had to go to a school to learn how to operate his toy...

By the way..Maritime Police can board to check you have a permit for sailing that particular boat, no issurance company insures if you do not have a licence for that type of boat and area/type of sailing, and no marina accepts you inside without a licence...

Seems to me that more others than the Governement control it..

Me?? as far as I am concerned?? I agree with licencing..makes me better, safer, and above all, makes me confident that the idiot coming staright at me knows which way to turn...

The governement doesn't really care..you guys should see licencing as a proof of scolarity, not as cut to freedom...

BUT ABOVE ALL by licencing I am not saying the piece of paper..to me licencing means EDUCATION...the course, the learning, the going to a school for months to learn...the paper is just to prove you went and did it..

Kind alike European driving licences, takes us 6 months, and 25 driving hours with a car with 2 wheels, and 25 classroom hours, plus 3 exams, to get a driving licence, which by the way, is not an ID document, like in the US, for that we have ID cards.

Exams are done by the NAVY
 
#63 ·
That's exactly what I am saying and I totally agree with you.

Why should you have to have a license to operate a boat? Because you are a liability to yourself and others. Let me emphasize the others part... a liability to others.

Regarding more boating driving accidents versus boating accidents, that is not a valuable statistic because: You are not showing a percentage of boat drivers/accidents to car drivers/accients. Also, I see the ski boaters smacking trailers all the time or the PWC'ers banging up their watercraft. Are those reported? However, what percentage of car acidents are reported?

Boating is more dangerous than driving a car... period. Yes, your car may be able to go faster, but it is also considerably safer than a boat. Boats do not have minimum crash requirements (especially a Tartan 34 where you cannot go fast enough to crash it). When you step out of your car, you step on dry land. Seat belts. Air bags. The list goes on. And need I mention one other point: it could be argued that a car, if not necessary, ALMOST necessary for 95% of Americans. No one has to have a boat. It is a luxury item.

And again, you cannot go buy a moped and drive it in our country without a license. Why in the world would you let people have a 10 ton killing machine??

And another thing, when I say a license, you guys seem to keep thinking about some crappy little drivers license course. I say, with increased tonnage, its gets serious - more like a Catpains License or similar. As far as I am concerned, make it the same test as with a 6pack. Have it administered and written by the USCG.

It would work. I have seen the bow ripped off a boat. I have seen a sunk boat with people hanging on. I have seen a burning boat. I have seen countless trailering accidents. Make them have a license, period. You want to weed out stupidity? Here's your chance.

- CD
 
#42 ·
Giulietta, that is precisely right. EDUCATION is important in anything we do. A little piece of paper that gives one a phd, license or certificate are worthless.

It's not who you know, or how well you know them, it's how well one can demonstrate one's skills.

The doubtful part here is that ANY GOVERNMENT that gets involved with such things usually fouls it up beyond all repair.

Licensing doesn't give a person common sense or experience... and lots of people have licenses that have no business driving....don't see that changing with boaters just cause they license boats.
This was my point. Doesn't matter how smart someone is, or educated, or how many pieces of paper.

If they don't temper their skills and abilities or actions with good common sense, then they title "Failure" will blink above their heads for all to see.

Careful with statistics people.

95% of all statistics can be made to say whatever you want. 50% of the time.

On its face, a statistic is nothing. I wonder WHY more people die in cars than in boats?
Trust me I am very careful with them... remember Mark Twain said, "There's lies, there's damned lies and then there's statistics...."

I agree with him completely (but on occasion to prove a point you have to cite SOMETHING... :))
 
#43 ·
We do need a licence in Slovenia (and countries around).
You can only operate a boat without a licence if the engine is less then 5 HP and the boat is shorter then about 10 feet (both conditions must be fulfilled)
If the boat is longer then 10 feet you can operate it without a licence only if it has no engine. But you are not allowed more then 1km (bit more then 1/2 nautical mile) from shore.
There are several levels of licences (for different max lengths and engine power).
It ensures that everyone on the water at least once in their life knew rules of the road.
It does not prevent stupidity.
 
#44 ·
Give me a freaking break. Have any of you had to go to traffic school after getting a ticket.
That's the kind of quality education you are going to get when the government gets involved.:puke

And Gui. Just because it seems to work in your little country. Doesn't mean it will work here.
There are people, like me, who want nothing more than that the government just do it's damn job and stay the hell out of my life. It's getting worse everyday and it's pretty sad that there are so many lemmings who not only will jump over the cliff, but are happy about it.:hammer
 
#49 ·
There are people, like me, who want nothing more than that the government just do it's damn job and stay the hell out of my life. It's getting worse everyday and it's pretty sad that there are so many lemmings who not only will jump over the cliff, but are happy about it.:hammer
lol

That's what I said!

Our government has a very limited job - that is defense of this country and those things therein related.

They have GIVEN themselves MANY JOBS more than they should have.

They have taken money from people they feel "make too much money" to give to those "less fortunate".

Hell, even where I live locally in Colorado Springs, CO I have been visited by the police BECAUSE I HAD SOME WEEDS GROWING IN MY YARD in the past. No, not the kind you smoke... just weeds. This is a bloody DESERT and all kinds of strange things blow in from everywhere. They want to ticket people for having weeds growing along a fence line (of course there was a woman in the neighborhood who goes around making things difficult for others and made the calls to get the cops there....)

Point being... Stay the Hell out of our LIVES. if I let weeds grow up when I don't have time to get to them, TOUGH. Pull them yourself if you don't LIKE them! LOL
 
#45 ·
It does not prevent stupidity.
Another case in point. It does not prevent stupidity.

What licensing does do:

1) Gives the government agency or entity that is making you get the license get money from you.

2) might force someone to take classes.

3) might force someone to take a test.

4) Certainly WILL prevent me, Tomaz and others from perhaps teaching someone else to sail.

5) will make it more difficult on the owners of boats who are responsible, because they too much be licensed as well - thus costing them money, time and more effort to cross the T and dot the I to "remain legal".
 
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