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JerryO39 09-19-2002 03:04 PM

Older Full Keel boats
Hi all,
I am doing some research.Trying to make a list of as many of the Full Keel design Solid Glass boats of the past.(60''s and later)I have been reading John Vigors book on ocean going sailboats and feel this would be a good start in search for a vessel.
Thanks for any input.
PS:Also if anyone knows..Which were full keel with the mast stepped off of the keel. :-)

Jeff_H 09-19-2002 06:47 PM

Older Full Keel boats
You asked for any input, First of all, let me touch on a pet peave of mine. Very few full keel boats were built in the 1960''s. By the 1960''s most boats were fin keel boats with attached rudders. By the 1960''s the waterlines had gotten so short, and the forefoots so cut away and the rudder post so far forward that most of the boats of the 1960''s were fin keelers, at least by the classic definition of a fin keel in which a fin keel is a keel whose bottom of the keel is 50% or less of the length of the sail plan.

I grew up sailing on these boats and still get to sail on them today. They were the worst of all worlds. They neither track like a full keel boat, nor manuever or have the speed of a fin keel boat. They tend to carry lots of crew tiring weather helm in a stiff breeze. They represent the worst of all worlds. You can''t let them dry out on their keel like you would a true full keel boat. The rudders are no more protected than a skeg hung rudder and all of the rudders that I have lost in my life (with the exception of a dinghy rudder) have been on keel hung rudders. Why people think the old CCA racing rule derived designs make good cruisers is an absolute mystery to me after four decades of sailing them.

The only two full keel boats that I can think of, at least in the U.S, in the 1960''s full keel boats might include the Folkboat, Allied Seawind.

While there have been a small number of full keel boats built in the decades since the 1960''s, I guess I need to ask why you see these as a starting point for a cruising boat. To me they should be a last resort.

Similarly, the current thinking seems to be that properly designed deck stepped masts really make more sense for offshore work. There is no easy way to jetison a bent over keel-stepped mast if it fails, so you are stuck with this bent piece of aluminum tearing at your cabin top and trying to beat its way through your hull and sink you. Having been holed by the stump of a mast that went over the side that is no fun at all. Frankly, keel stepped masts are a throwback to a time when boats had wooden masts with external halyards. Also in the 1960''s few production boats had keel stepped masts but also few had proper deck step set-ups as well.

Then there is the whole solid glass mythology as well but I think that tripe has been beat to death around here.


JerryO39 09-20-2002 02:19 AM

Older Full Keel boats
Hi JeffH,
Thanks for the input.I am just trying to educate myself and found Vigors book on sailboats thats where I got the full keel idea.Ultimatley I am just looking for a sailboat to spend winters in the Carribean and that I can rig for single handed operation.A well constructed small boat.
I really don''t know much about boats other than what I read in books and see posted here.

You happen to have a short list of boats you think would fit the bill?

PS:I may be asking too much but it would be nice if I could tow it home for the off season and keep it behind the house.

Jeff_H 09-20-2002 04:36 AM

Older Full Keel boats
There is a lot to this topic. More than I have time for this morning but in a general sense, there were good boats and poorer cruising boats from all eras. Many, if not most, 1960''s era boats are going to be very ''tired'' by now. As boats age, there are a lot of things that happen. Some are reversible and some are not. Obviously,deck hardware, keel bolts, rigging and sails can be replaced, engines rebuilt or replaced, electronics upgraded, and so on. But things like bad hull to deck joints, fatigue at high stress points, delaminated encapsulated keels and those type of basic structural issues are not not so easily dealt with.

If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a boat between 26 and 30 feet, up to about 32 feet max. that someone has lovingly maintained, and upgraded. One thing about older boats is that the cost of ''bringing one back'' far exceeds by several time the value of the boat on the resale market, so if you find one that has been carefully upgraded and maintained, the final cost will usually be less than buying a fix-er-upper.

If I had to suggest just a couple boats from the 1960''s that for the kind of thing you are considering, I would probably suggest a Tartan 27 first and perhaps a Seawind Ketch as a distant second. Almost anything that you bought from this era will need bigger tankage and some careful preparation.


JerryO39 09-20-2002 12:25 PM

Older Full Keel boats
Thanks JeffH,
These Taratans look nice,even the 30 footers are in my range.Thanks again for your help.

Jerry :-)

Heruka 09-20-2002 12:35 PM

Older Full Keel boats
Tartan 30 is what I have. Bought the boat for under $10k. There''s a lot of em'' out there.

windship 09-20-2002 02:32 PM

Older Full Keel boats
Please be advised that jeff is a gentelman who races and is devoted to high speed, high performance and high tech yachts.
To me,he doesn''t seem to like the older more traditional yachts and rarely has anything good to say about them.
His bias towards the first mentioned yachts is clearly visible in any one of his posts having to do with this subject.


Jeff_H 09-20-2002 03:26 PM

Older Full Keel boats

With all due respect, I don''t think that is a fair assessment of my position at all. I think you are selling me short. Actually, I love traditional boats, as well as, modern boats. I have owned, and restored quite a few wooden boats, the oldest of which was constructed in the 1930''s. I have documented traditional watercraft and truely am a fan of what traditional boats have to offer. When I worked for the late yacht designer, Charlie Wittholz, most of the boat designs that I worked on were very traditional designs that included a number of schooners, yawls and gaff catboats. I still very much enjoy sailing traditional watercraft and get to sail on and enjoy sailing on a wide range of traditional craft, as well as, the more modern boats that I own, cruise, daysail and race. Even so, I am currently working on a design for a very traditional daysailor that I hope to build for myself in the next few years.

BUT based on that experience, owning and sailing tradtional watercraft, as well as, sailing and owning the abominations of the late CCA era (which in my view are not really traditional watercraft and lack the significant virtues of traditional watercraft) and as well as owning a wide range of more modern craft, I see the relative virtues of both modern and traditional craft. They each offer very different sailing experiences and abilities. My belief, as often expressed in my posts, is that it is important to try to keep these virtues and liabilities in perspective. It is too easy to glorify one or the other of these boat types beyond thier abilities. I try in my posts to present a balanced view point at least as I have experienced it or researched it.

In this case, I think that you are especially unfair to my position on this tread. If you look at the two boats that I suggested, one a 1960''s era MORC design (which during that time period was a far more wholesome racing rule that produced far more well-rounded designs than the CCA rule of the era) and the other a design based on the H-28 (the quintessential full keeled small cruiser of that era) neither would reflect a devotion to "to high speed, high performance and high tech yacht".

In fairness I will say that my normal position reflects my belief that most people who have normal jobs, and so have limited time to use thier boats, are far better served by more modern, higher performance and higher tech yachts. It is also fair to say that my opinions also reflect my belief that yacht design principles that resulted from the limitations of the materials available in the 1920''s and 1930''s are often being oversold as the only way to go cruising and frankly I do think that is hog wash. A lot has happened since these design principles made sense and to rigidly adhere to them as the only way to go make no more sense than to advocate that we all drive 1920''s or 1930''s era automobiles as daily drivers.


windship 09-20-2002 04:57 PM

Older Full Keel boats
extreme disgust and hatred:loathing.

I didn''t say traditional, I said more traditional.I agree, it''s not the same.
The sixties and seventies boats are exactly what I was talking about.The CCA boats.So they don''t sail as well as a Farr thirty what! To me their beautiful and the vast majority of them sail reasonably well and their tuffer than most new boats.Thats why their still around.
I stand by what I said in my post.I''m just calling it as it appears.
very respectfully,


Jeff_H 09-20-2002 06:43 PM

Older Full Keel boats
I would have said that an ''abomination'' is something that is odious or loathsome. To me, there was an evolution in the design of vessels that responded to the realities of the materials available and the nature of a vessel at sea. To me the the corruption of these principles that were evoluted over generations simply to beat a rating rule is an abomination, something loathsome or odious. I''ll stand by that.

My criticism of CCA boats of the 1960''s and IOR boats of the 1970''s is not only in relation to the boats of today, but in relatioship to the more wholesome designs that proceeded them as well.

Signing off to get some sleep so I will be sharp racing a 40 foot Farr (not mine)for the weekend.


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