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  #251 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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thinwater is on a distinguished road
Abandoned Boats

Jody --

Can you supply any links to the information you saw? Was it all on IE or is there a secondary source? Thanks!

John
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  #252 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/bu...oats.html?_r=1
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  #253 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnblu View Post
I don't know for sure, but it seems cameraderie doesn't seem to like Smacky. Or is he just playin? Hmmmm.
Smacky inadvertently wandered into a sailing thread. Usually he just critiques the motives of the other members but he seems to now think that his opinion on salvage, mooring procedures, and maintaining a boat on the cheap are of some relevance. He'll wander back to his bathtub to re-enact the fishing boat scene for the umpteenth time after awhile. And he's got another girl to save from the clutches of the AFOC's, as well. Lot's of work for a busy troll.
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  #254 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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John...here's the discussion at the town council:
3. Abandoned watercraft fine amount
Mr. Burdette stated that council needs to set the minimum/maximum fine for this ordinance. Mr. Burdette stated that State Law allows that the fine range from $1,000 to $5,000 but with the assessments that go along with the fines a $1000 fine becomes approximately a $2,000 fine and a $5,000 would be approximately $10,000.

Ms. Kirvin stated that she had also calculated the price of a $2,500 fine which would be mid-point and the total with all assessments and surcharges would be $5,242.50. Ms. Kirvin added the amount for a $1,000 fine would be $2,130.00.

Mr. Collins asked if we were identifying the boats and if we have any response from the owners.

Mr. Burdette stated that placards had been placed on the boats but there is a long waiting period and that we are still at that point. Mr. Burdette stated that no one has gone to court yet but it is only a matter of time.

Mr. Burdette stated that he recommends the minimum and maximum fine be set at $1,000. Mr. Burdette added that the $1,000 fine which turns into a $2,000 fine should get someone’s attention.

Mr. Collins asked if this fine was to recoup costs involved in removing the boats or just a fine to someone not responding to removing the boats.

Mr. Burdette stated that this was a punishment and the money goes in the general fund of the Town just like any other fine does and our cost should be very minimal.

Chief Sewell stated that we are still in the placard process and have heard from two of the boat owners.

Mr. Burdette stated that once a $1,000 minimum fine is set it is still in the judge’s discretion
to charge up to the $5,000 maximum fine.

Mr. Young asked for clarification from Ms. Kirvin as to whether we were setting the standard fine/bond amount, and if this would limit the Judge’s authority at all.

Ms. Kirvin answered that it would be the bond amount that the officer will write at the top of the ticket and the minimum will be $1,000 so the total bond will be $2,130.00.

Mr. Young asked for clarification of what was being asked of the committee by way of a recommendation to Council.

Ms Kirvin stated she was asking to set the bond amount.

Ms. Stokes-Marshall asked if the cost factor involved from the notification to giving out of the fines is absorbed in the fine.

Mr. Burdette stated that this is not a cost recovery program that this is a fine and the money goes into the general fund. Mr. Burdette added that whatever it costs the Town to have a boat removed is what it costs the Town. Mr. Burdette added the boats can be salvaged or the boats will go to a land fill.

Mr. Young stated that there is a provision in the statute that the individual can ultimately responsible for all cost. He added that whether the Town can actually recover is an open question. Mr. Young reiterated that there is a separate provision to recover any costs if the owner of the boat can be identified, but the Town has to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

Mr. Collins moved to recommend to full council the minimum/maximum abandoned watercraft fine of $1,000. Mr. Gawrych seconded the motion. All present were in favor.

Mr. Collins asked Mr. Young to clarify if the judge has the ability to increase the fine to $5,000 even though the minimum is set at $1,000.

Mr. Young stated that he will look the statue over and come back with a clarification

Ms. Kirvin stated that the statue indicates that the fine is not less than $1,000 and no more than $5,000 and the bond amount would be the total amount including any assessments and surcharges that the ordinance allows for.

Mr. Young stated that the language is that committee is setting the “standard” fine/ bond amount, with the ultimate decision up to the Judge.

Mr. Collins stated that he did not want to tie the hand of the judges by limiting the maximum amount.

Ms. Kirvin stated the only limitation would be the $1,000 minimum as they would not be able to go any less than that.

Chief Sewell stated that setting a limit gives the officer some guidance one where to start the amount and paints everybody the same.
************
Source: The Town of Mount Pleasant Online Mount Pleasant, South Carolina

****************
Finally on 5/2 at the Mt. Pleasant Town Council:
"2. Abandoned watercraft fine amount.
Mr. Burdette stated, after much discussion, the Committee voted
that the fine/bond be $1000 and with assessments that would amount
to approximately $2,500. Mr. Burdette stated they have since
discussed this with our Judges and he asked Ms. Levica Kirvin to
present what the Judges propose.
Ms. Kirvin stated the Judges would like to see Council approve the
mid-range which would be $5,242.50. That amount would get
everyone’s attention, and would allow them the discretion to go
lower or higher on the fine, up to $10,000 on a $5,000 fine.
Town Council Meeting
May 12, 2009
Page 19 of 25
19
Mayor Pro Tem Smith asked if the Judges were asking to set the
minimum fine at $2,500 and increase it to $5,000 with assessments.
Ms. Kirvin answered in the affirmative.
Mayor Pro Tem Smith asked if there was any discussion among
Council because this differs from what the Committee had
discussed.
Mr. Santos moved to approve the judges’ recommendation for the
$2,500.00 as a minimum fine with the extra assessments added that
amount to $5,242.50; motion seconded by Mr. Gawrych. Motion
carried unanimously.

Source: http://www.townofmountpleasant.com/d...02009%20TC.pdf
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  #255 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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Thanks for that Camraderie, I hadn't seen it before..
It's about time, and hopefully the municipaliites around MtP will do the same..
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  #256 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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Clear as Charleston Mud

Thanks for the info . Now, if I get understand correctly (long shot) the boat and owner would get a $2500 ticket, tied to the boat or delivered at home, whatever, which would increase over time to $5200? What is that time frame?

Or, is it a $2500 fine which sort of "automatically" becomes $5200 due to court costs, service fees, research expenses, etc.?

Thanks,

John
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  #257 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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i think the way to handle this, or one way. the state puts a sign on the boat, after 30 days the boat is free to whom ever wants it. now the new taker has to go thru DNR or who ever to contact the owner, and has the right to the boat after 30 days. the person claiming the boat should be able to reclaim any storage fees for the 30 days, with a max of say 500 bucks.

edit, basicly speeding up the process already in effect for abandoned boats or mechanic leans already on the books

Last edited by scottyt; 08-02-2009 at 01:33 PM.
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  #258 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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These SOUND like great ideas, "fine 'em, fine 'em big,etc,etc. "
The reality is it's not that simple, at all.
Abandoned vessel issues are not new. the only real effect to these types of "feel good" ordinances is alot of justification for the enforcement and judicial system's ever increasing budget.
As evidenced by the conversation of the town board posted by Cam. one person keeps asking where the money's going and repeatedly is told the "general Fund". If the issue is actually the waterways safety,navigation etc. etc. then the cash should be used for that.
Aside from the money grab. the reality is that the people abandoning their vessels most likely did/do so in a large part due to financial issues. if they were unable to deal w/ the boat themselves with all the different options available. Tell me how the courts or any concious person can expect to collect these 1000's and 1000's in fines? get real. Are perhaps you familiar with the term "blood from a stone?"
I would much rather see more organizations like waterkeeper or riverwatcher or whomever take an interest with actual results than yet more time and resource wasted on the "punishment" approach.
Of course I favor a return on my investment rather than more feel good unfunded mandates, and red tape.
Look at successful waterfront communities and take their lead in methods used to prevent abandoned and derelict vessels before they become costly removal issues by comunities.
More interest and self education of mariners and waterfront comunities .The remedies already at their dispose as well as good old self policing by all in the boating community would go alot further than the punishment approach.
One of the biggest issues with these vessels is determining ownership , Florida has taken a big step requiring all vessels on the water to be registered at all times.(can't believe it was otherwise) of course enforcing the laws are another issue, as there are several unregistered in my immediate area now, and they've been there a while. No doubt on the way to the bottom.
So much for more laws.
Derelict vessel in florida is a criminal offense. yet I've never read or know of anyone being prosecuted for it.
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  #259 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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+1 Joe.

This thread, and some comments herein, has given me an idea for another discussion we should have about boat ownership.

I'll start that one tonight after I get back from the boat. Interesting stuff.
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  #260 (permalink)  
Old 08-02-2009
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the down and dirty

Me and a friend went out and took a look at Distant Star yesterday. I found out about her when my boss told me about the craigslist ad.

I took pics but can’t post them because I'm new to the site. 10 posts before you can posts links? So bare with me if I make several non-posts so I can get the pics out to all who are interested. In the mean time she looks pretty damn bad. But I'm still tempted. Probably because I'm a complete novice and have no idea what a mess I would be getting myself in to. Not so much the recovery, but the rebuild.

Supposedly someone else is going out next weekend to take a shot at getting her out of the mud. The good news, for that person, is she actually isn't full of mud like many have suggested on here, she's just laying in it. I swam all around her and felt around both under and inside her (wear skiing gloves) and the mud inside is negligible. I wish the perspective salvor luck. But if he fails to get her out I may take a shot at her myself. I'm almost more interested in the challenge of floating her again than what to do with her afterward. If anything I only live about 20 minutes away from where she lies and would be willing to lend a hand to any potential salvors. Just shoot me a message.

I'll post the pics as soon as I hit the 10 post mark.
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