Well my day really sucked.

[bloodhunter]

Smack,
There you've asked what IMHO is the main relevant questions. How much will a salvage operatkion cost and what can an owner do if they don't have the money to effect a salvage or removal.
Fining someone who can't afford to salavage the boat seems a waste of effort and resources (taxpayer money).
The other question is specific to this particular problem. If the boat is refloated then what. Assuming the hull is not damaged beyond repair, it looks like the boat will have to be completely rebuilt inside and out. Even for a person who has all the skills and tools necessary and a place to do the rebuilding, this still has got to cost a lot more than buying a similar boat in decent condition from a broker and that doesn't count the labor involved.
Doesn't seem to be any good answer as to what to do.

[camaraderie]

So poor people should not be subject to fines when they break the law?
Novel concept.
The THREAT of fines causes behavior change. I'm sure a payment plan can be worked out with the courts/municipalities as needed in individual circumstances.
I agree with your comments on the boat. The only sensible result will be chain saws and a crusher.
You're right...there is NO good answer but personal responsibility rather than public responsibility is the BETTER answer.

[chandlerman]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

You're right...there is NO good answer but personal responsibility rather than public responsibility is the BETTER answer.

I'm with Cam. This is about ensuring that people own their responsibilities, which includes (especially) when things go wrong. To many boat owners are effectively under-capitalized and don't even realize it.

The key here is that the economics of the enforcement regimen must be sound, and then people must be aware of them. To whit:
1) It must be cheaper to carry salvage insurance then salvage a boat yourself. I trust the insurance actuaries to generally do a good job measuring & valuing this risk transfer onto themselves.
2) It must be cheaper to arrange salvage of the boat yourself than to leave it to the state.

#2 is where the current system seems to fail--if it costs $10,000 to salvage a boat sitting on mud, plus the overhead cost of managing the people and processes to provide it through the government, then the fine should cover that and would therefore reasonably meet requirement #2. It sounds like the fines being discussed are pretty minimal as compared (wasnt it something like $5,000? Probably needs to be 5x that!), which means that #2 will not produce the desired behavior on the part of negligent boat owners.

One of the theories behind government is that "regulations exist to ensure that externalities are put back onto their creators." This regulation would fail to do so. If people abuse the system (take the fine and walk away), then that becomes Moral Hazard (taking a risk, then letting the government bail you out afterwards when things go wrong), which is even worse.

[bloodhunter]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

So poor people should not be subject to fines when they break the law?
Novel concept.
The THREAT of fines causes behavior change. I'm sure a payment plan can be worked out with the courts/municipalities as needed in individual circumstances.
I agree with your comments on the boat. The only sensible result will be chain saws and a crusher.
You're right...there is NO good answer but personal responsibility rather than public responsibility is the BETTER answer.

Cam,
I agree that personal responsibility is better than public responsibility but what is nice is theory does not necessarily work in practice. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that it often costs more to collect from people who don't have money than is ever collected. Payment plans, again you have the problem and costs of getting payments plus the costs of administering the plan. May if you don't pay you're in contempt of court and can be jailed -- I don't know...
Maybe manadatory insurance as the do on autos with no sale or transfer of title allowed without proof of insurance. I'm not real happy with that and not at all sure it would work but the state does have a real interest in the issue.

[midlifesailor]

Originally Posted by bloodhunter

Cam,
I agree that personal responsibility is better than public responsibility but what is nice is theory does not necessarily work in practice. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that it often costs more to collect from people who don't have money than is ever collected. Payment plans, again you have the problem and costs of getting payments plus the costs of administering the plan. May if you don't pay you're in contempt of court and can be jailed -- I don't know...
Maybe manadatory insurance as the do on autos with no sale or transfer of title allowed without proof of insurance. I'm not real happy with that and not at all sure it would work but the state does have a real interest in the issue.

The point being missed is the fine is just the fine. The owner should also be held responsible for the cost of the removal over and above the fine. Garnish wages for the next 20 years if need be, but the cost should be borne by the individual.

[smackdaddy]

You guys are right. The fine does nothing to remedy the situation. It might act as some level of deterrent - but the boat is still there just like many, many others in the same situation.

It's a cost/risk/benefit analysis that everyone, rich and poor, live by. Fines won't be able to fix that.

[thinwater]

I won't know for sure if this boat is too far gone until she's out of the muck and the stick points up. My last boat (Ranger 33) hit a bridge (before I got her) and had a 6' tear in the cockpit and side deck. After the repair (including reattachment of a mis-matched rig), she sailed great, didn't leak (not there, anyway), and never gave me any real problems. The overriding reason I think there may still be a chance at saving this boat - it's a Pearson! The hull won't be a problem, and if the cabin top and side decks aren't rotted away, she'll be a gutted hull asking for a rebuild. But I won't know for sure 'til I raise her. And besides, it's an interesting engineering question.

I don't expect to solve the abandoned boat problem or settle the arguement about the best way to motivate/punish owners. I expect to raise this one and see if she has life left in her.

John

[rallens]

That's what I'm talking about John! Exactly what I was thinking. She's worth getting out of the mud regardless of your intentions afterward (scrap or rebuild).

Just out of curiosity does anybody on here know if the keel on a Pearson is lead or iron?

Hopefully you worked out a deal with the previous owner (don't want name drop, he's taken enough heat on here) to get the sails, motor, and whatever else he had in storage when she sank.

I'm a complete novice (never owned a boat) and have likewise chosen to leave Distant Star to someone with more experience. You say the word John and I (and hopefully some other friends) will be there to lend you a hand.

Robert

[Sailormann]

Someone who leaves his boat hanging on anchor for months at end, unattended, is not exactly a victim of bad luck when the boat is lost.

EDIT: leaving the hulk to settle, however, may be bad luck for some other boater, down the line.
__________________

What wonderfully helpful comment you've made. It's certainly an indication of a compassionate, caring individual able to appreciate the constraints others face in their lives; and cognisant of the reality that not everyone is able to complete all of the tasks they wish they could each day.

One can only hope that when a misfortune of similar magnitude befalls you - as it will - (sooner or later we all have to deal with some major mistakes we've made); that you are the recipient of a multitude of equally thoughtful and supportive wishes.

Sincerely,

[mallo]

Well someone I know was very lucky…..



They went aground, were rescued off the boat, tide went out, had lunch, tide returned, went back aboard and floated off again!!!! I suppose it can happen to anyone, I know of three other similar instances two of them along the same line as the original poster….. it can happen.

P.S. Smack I will tell the other story when I make some time to type it up, I am currently trying to get out sailing!!!!!