Don Jordan and the Jordan Series Drogue

[smackdaddy]

Nice Bob and Cam - now see what you guys can dream up for the competing device: The Gale Rider!

[sailingdog]

Bob—

The people who usually cut the JSD free are trying to get back underway before the storm that they were dealing with and had to use the JSD for, has really ended, often before they were rested sufficiently as well.

The whole point of deploying the JSD is so that the captain and crew can get some decent rest and recharge themselves. Almost every user of the JSD has reported that the boat felt like it was in a harbor and the motion of the boat had gentled significantly—so the statement about being pounded senseless really doesn't make much sense. Using the JSD is supposed to prevent that from happening.

If there is no strong winds and waves driving the boat, the JSD is actually relatively easy to retrieve—since it will be hanging almost vertically directly beneath the boat as designed.

On my boat, the JSD design length is 270' or so, with a bridle that is about 35' long. That means that I've got to retrieve 300' of rode effectively. If I can retrieve 40' at a time by running the two lines forward to the bow pulpit, I only have to do the whole running back and forth bit EIGHT times all told, and tie/untie 16 knots.

If you want a guinea pig to test your new designs, I'd love to see them. Improving upon Don Jordan's design would be a good thing, especially if we can come up with one that works as effectively, but is far easier to retrieve.

Originally Posted by bobmcgov

Agree we need to simplify retrieval. Then the design will become standard. ALL sea anchors or drogues are hard to recover -- they are made to resist pulling! People cut JSDs loose because they are tired, seasick, drenched, and can't muster the energy to winch the bastard back on board. They'll regret it later, but it's the sort of decision you make when you've been pounded senseless for three days.

SD's method of running forward and aft with nippers works fine on multis, in decent conditions, or with multiple crew; but I could see that sort of muscle-work being functionally impossible for me (140 lbs) after a blow, and possibly dangerous when the wind has dropped but the sea is still cutting up, the boat is heaving every which way, and you can't put up sail to steady it because (because why?) you're trying to winch the damn JSD aboard.

I'm going to make a couple prototypes this summer and troll them around, see if we can sort out a trip line scheme for these things. They really are a great development in storm tactics and people will be less hesitant to use a JSD if they know getting it back aboard isn't a nightmare.

[sailingdog]

Not a great idea, since if the balloon inflates by accident during the storm... you're basically screwed. I wouldn't trust something electrical for the retrieval, and something simpler and mechanical in nature is generally a better way to go—especially with storm gear.

Originally Posted by AdamLein

How about a remote-controlled auto-inflating balloon on the outboard end? Could be powered by a little CO2 cartridge. Maybe a wire running to a solenoid valve for the control? I'm thinking the sort of balloon freedivers use to carry them up from deep dives... just needs to be triggered from the boat.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by blt2ski

Along with the, "some folks just cut it, instead of hauling it back in" Come on now, not that it could happen, but you could need this twice or three times on some crossings, depending upon the year you travel. That is an expensive use of funds!

And something you're likely to regret if you need it a second time around...

They need to fix the retrieval part of this thing, otherwise, like a lot of things, it may be the best at what it does, but if you cannot fix it etc, it might as well be the worst! This one appears to fall into the worst catagory due to retrieval, not that any one really asked me!

Marty

If you've waited until the storm that necessitated using the JSD has ended, retrieval isn't all that bad as I understand it. As I said previously, the real problem with retrieving it is if the boat is still in motion from the wind/waves and you're trying to retrieve it while it is still effectively in use.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

If you've waited until the storm that necessitated using the JSD has ended, retrieval isn't all that bad as I understand it. As I said previously, the real problem with retrieving it is if the boat is still in motion from the wind/waves and you're trying to retrieve it while it is still effectively in use.

This still doesn't make sense though, Dog. What you seem to be saying is that it's "easy" only when the boat is not in motion and the drogue is hanging vertically beneath the boat. As some said earlier - the sea state will keep up quite a while after the blow passes. So are you saying that you just have to wait for a virtual dead calm to easily retrieve it? Seriously? Maybe that's why most sailors cut it and split.

Again, the site itself drives home the difficulty of retrieval. Them's the facts. Until Bob finds a decent celebrity to aid in that...I ain't buyin' it.

Honestly, it seems that if you could video yourself successfully deploying and retrieving in moderate conditions (kind of a Giu video) it would help not only your assertions - but would probably be very useful for the JSD website as well.

[blt2ski]

SD,

You're fighting a losing battle here. Again, folks will buy what they pervieve to be the "best" at something. BUT, if it has a negative like this one does, which most items do, and that negative is a really bad one, it will not sell!

I use all kinds of 2 cycle equipment for my landscape biz. How many times have you heard that "Stihl" is the best? Do not get me wrong, good equipment etc, but, when it breaks down, try to get parts out of the Stihl! It takes 2 weeks minimum. If you are like me, then you need a back up for if and when the machine breaks down. I realize things will break, no biggie, but, if and when they do, I want quick turn around. I end up buying Echo, as they will overnight things to the shop, and I'm on my the road again a day or two later vs 2 weeks of down time! So an echo breaks down afer 100 hrs vs 120 for the stihl as an example, I get more use out of the Echo in a given time frame because of the parts issue. So to me, the Echo is better.

In this drogues case, When the wind dies, I want to pull it in! so they need to figure out a better way to make it easier on a tired person in a funky less wind sea state. Otherwise, dragging ropes or equal, while not as effeicient in use, when the storm pass's, quicker and easier to get moving.

Marty

[AdamLein]

Okay what about a much deeper version of the lifesling? Drop overboard a long sinking line with a float on the outboard end, and secure the bitter end to the boat. Sail around in a big circle so that the sinking line essentially fouls the drogue line, the deeper the better. Pick up the float and haul.

Basically the sinking line needs to "catch" the drogue as deep as possible, which converts it into a trip line. Preattaching an outboard-facing grapnel on the inboard end of the chain at the end of the drogue could help with this. If you can pick up that hook with your sinking line, you wouldn't be pulling agaist the resistance of the cones anymore.

Sort of like this (before you return to pick up the buoy):

From Diagrams

[bobmcgov]

Unlike the Great Lakes or coastal bays, at sea the wind doesn't neccessarily die & water calm just because the storm or squall has passed. Wind may drop from fifty to twenty knots, then stay there for five days -- and you ain't winching that drogue aboard in twenty. There's also a limit to how much time you want to spend dragging a sea anchor -- there may be shoals to leeward, or you may wish to stop drifting off course and start making miles to your destination again. Ability to retrieve easily and at will is critical to a finished design.

The JSD improves motion, but it won't magically cancel all effects of a confused sea, or spare you the fatigue of sitting 4-hour watches in cold, pelting rain. Cause you still have to watch, right? Just the noise of a bad storm can wear down a crew, and so can anxiety. We used to practise really clever and efficient rappelling techniques at our local crag, so if we had to bail off a big mountain in a hurry we could do so safely, with minimal loss of gear. It was invaluable training but conducted at 8000' in the sunshine, on good solid granite. Turns out those techniques work a bit less effectively at 14000 feet, with exhausted climbers & "rock" made of cat litter. When the sleet is horizontal and night is coming fast, you plug in two eighty-dollar cams and kiss them goodbye.

[Sequitur]

I have a JSD as an emergency device, as an answer to a big what if?. Another answer to an even bigger what if? is my liferaft. I hope that we never need to use either one. But to head offshore without answers to all of the what ifs is not good seamanship.

I have not yet done a test deployment of my JSD, but it is one of the things I have planned planned for our July sail straight out into the Pacific for three days then turn around. I'll experiment with retrieval methods, though one thing I know is that the first third of the haul is a matter of winching-in the bridle and the leader. Then, as the cones start coming in, each length becomes easier. My 147 cones will become about 10% lighter a load with each 15 retrieved.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This still doesn't make sense though, Dog. What you seem to be saying is that it's "easy" only when the boat is not in motion and the drogue is hanging vertically beneath the boat. As some said earlier - the sea state will keep up quite a while after the blow passes. So are you saying that you just have to wait for a virtual dead calm to easily retrieve it? Seriously? Maybe that's why most sailors cut it and split.

Dead calm isn't required. In fact, confused seas can make it simpler to retrieve the JSD in many ways, since there is no predominant movement to the waves to cause the drogue to really deploy, and confused seas is often the case after the wind has dropped in intensity after a storm.

Again, the site itself drives home the difficulty of retrieval. Them's the facts. Until Bob finds a decent celebrity to aid in that...I ain't buyin' it.

Honestly, it seems that if you could video yourself successfully deploying and retrieving in moderate conditions (kind of a Giu video) it would help not only your assertions - but would probably be very useful for the JSD website as well.