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  #71  
Old 05-13-2009
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Why Lynnette? ("only choose a Florentino") I have a good idea why SD chose the JSD, but why as an individual, and not an employee of the company, would you only choose Florentino? Does it cover the shortcomings of all other drouges? Isn't it ok for you to say here why it's better? The problem with reading every other manufacturers data, is that it is biased towards their own product. (sorry) Much weight is placed on the opinion of SD, because (I think) he researched, and came to the conclusion that the JSD is right for HIM. We have also been reading and getting a feeling for his advice for almost 34 000 entries, just on this site. Perhaps some individuals whom owns a Florentino could pitch in, and discuss what they like and don't like.
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  #72  
Old 05-13-2009
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Lynette—

I'd point out that you're not quite correct when you say the Jordan Series Drogue causes greater shock loading than other drogues. By shock loading, I am referring to the sudden transfer of high forces to the hardware that connects the drogue or sea anchor to the boat. While the Jordan Series Drogue does create more drag than most drag devices outside of a larger parachute-type sea anchor, it doesn't shock load, as the JSD is designed to load progressively.

When not under load, the JSD will effectively hang vertically from the transom of the boat.... as a load is applied by the moving boat, the JSD will extend from the transom of the boat aft and as the load increases, more and more of the JSD will be brought into play, progressively loading the rode and deck hardware on the boat. This is unlike other drogues and the parachute-type sea anchors—which, if the boat goes from an untensioned rode to applying a heavy load will generally get shock loading as the single element of the drogue or parachute sea anchor fills and takes effect.

I'd also point out that boat's lying to a JSD are rarely pooped, as the stern of most modern boats offers far more buoyancy than does the bow. Don Jordan mentions this in his notes, which were published here, saying:

Quote:
Some sailors have expressed reluctance to use a drogue for rear of being "pooped". Testing has shown that a conventional monohull or multihull will perform in a safe manner when riding stern to the sea. Actually, the stern generally has more local buoyancy than the bow and will rise quickly to a steep sea. However, storm waves will have whitecaps containing some moving water and this may splash aboard.

In a dangerous breaking wave strike, moving water may sweep the cockpit and strike the companionway doors. This is unavoidable, and is a necessary corollary to saving the vessel.
Don Jordan also goes on to point out that he:


Quote:
...developed this drogue in conjunction with the Coast Guard. It is the first and only such device to be specifically designed for a 'worst case' breaking wave strike. Such a strike is described in Miles Smeeton's book 'Once Is Enough'. Modern engineering tools such as scale model testing in flow channels and breaking wave tanks, computer dynamic simulation, and laboratory testing for structural strength and durability were used in the development, as well as full scale testing using a 42-foot Coast Guard powerboat. The final design was tested in large breaking waves at the Coast Guard National Motor Lifeboat School in Ilwaco, Washington. This work is described in U.S. Coast Guard Report C.G.-D-20- 87, Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts., U. S Dept. of Commerce Nat. Info. Service, Springfield, VA 22191 ($22).
I'd also question how why you feel a parachute sea anchor is a safer device, when the issues with form stability of a boat anchored from the bow, as explained by Don Jordan here, still exist. Boats lying to a sea anchor will still have a tendency to horse, which does not happen when lying to a stern-deployed JSD. Don Jordan points out that sea anchors, including the large parachute type ones are not that useful because:

Quote:
A monohull is directionally unstable when moving backward because the center of pressure of the underwater surface is behind the center of gravity. As any skipper knows, it is possible to run off before a storm - but it is not possible to run off backwards as the boat will yaw. There are two additional sources of instability. The center of pressure of the air forces on the topsides and rigging is ahead of the center of gravity. There is also a third and more complex dynamic instability. The last two instabilities result in the behavior observed when a monohull is anchored from the bow in protected water during a hurricane. "It is particularly unnerving to watch a yacht tacking back and forth on a mooring under bare poles and knocking flat at the end of each tack," reported one who watched a monohull during hurricane Bertha. If the boat had been anchored from the stern, it would ride with little yaw.

When riding to a parachute sea anchor, a monohull will yaw wildly. As the storm increased in severity, it would develop load sufficient to break the rode. A sea anchor does not provide safety in a survival storm.
What is your response to these points?
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  #73  
Old 05-13-2009
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show me yours first -- and then I'll show you mine

SailingDog,

Please respond to my viewpoints from yesterday and I’ll be more than happy to respond to yours. Here’s part of the original post not answered (#34):

According to Donald Jordan’s 1987 Coast Guard Report, a breaking wave can sweep the stern of your boat while using a Jordan Series Drogue. If a wave strikes a flat transom boat, the report emphasizes to have strong companionway doors and that everything else in your cockpit better be beefed up. There’s also potential damage to a dinghy or windvane hanging from the transom. From what I read, sailors who own a canoe stern boat are potentially the only people that can effectively use the series drogue in a breaking wave circumstance.

Something else not mentioned is how Jordon failed to compare apples to apples. According to the Coast Guard Report, the series drogue was never tested against the parachute sea anchor. In truth, Jordon tested his series drogue against a cone-style drift sock that looks similar to an airport windsock. Jordan’s second mistake was to add weight placement to his drogue, but not to the competing drift socks. According to the CG Report, Jordan recognized how weight placement was essential. So why didn’t Jordon add weight to the drift socks? It’s been common practice since 1947 to use chain weight for parachute sea anchors? If it works for the parachute sea anchor and the series drogue, why not the drift socks?

Furthermore, it’s not very cool to credit Donald Jordan as the “brainchild” (inventor) for other peoples hard work. In truth, the series drogue concept was originally patented by E.J. Pagan in 1889 and later by Sidelnikov in 1975. Unlike Jordan, their efforts to promote their series drogue failed.

Finally, lets be honest about the USCG involvement with the series drogue test. In truth, the USCG makes it very clear how they only provided "an economical platform" for Jordon to conduct his studies. They never endorsed the series drogue or stated that it was the best solution. Donald Jordon and his business associates make that claim.
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  #74  
Old 05-13-2009
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Hmmm, I was hoping for more than a pissing match Lynnette. If you want to sell some of those things, get over it, and move onto giving some information on your better solution. Tell us why, show us why, and take the high road. Maybe I need to buy one? Use my boat as an example. What info does it take? C'mon, lets play.
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  #75  
Old 05-14-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynnette View Post
SailingDog,

Please respond to my viewpoints from yesterday and I’ll be more than happy to respond to yours. Here’s part of the original post not answered (#34):

According to Donald Jordan’s 1987 Coast Guard Report, a breaking wave can sweep the stern of your boat while using a Jordan Series Drogue. If a wave strikes a flat transom boat, the report emphasizes to have strong companionway doors and that everything else in your cockpit better be beefed up. There’s also potential damage to a dinghy or windvane hanging from the transom. From what I read, sailors who own a canoe stern boat are potentially the only people that can effectively use the series drogue in a breaking wave circumstance.
No, actually, the JSD would benefit anyone using it in the case of breaking wave strike... however, as you point out the double-ended canoe stern boats would benefit in ways other designs might now. I'd point out that any boat that is hit by a breaking wave would do well to have a beefed up structure. A boat lying to a parachute-type sea anchor would be even more dangerously exposed, given the very nature of the parachute sea anchor, and would be well advised to have a reinforced cabintop.

I'd also point out that anyone carrying a dinghy on davits in this type of situation on the open ocean pretty much gets what they deserve... having a dinghy on transom davits in any kind of heavy weather is just stupid IMHO.

Most wind vanes wouldn't be too seriously affected, other than losing the vane, and if you had your airvane still mounted while dealing with the conditions that forced you to deploy a JSD, you deserve to have it broken off. The airvane on most windvanes is easily and quickly removable.

Quote:
Something else not mentioned is how Jordon failed to compare apples to apples. According to the Coast Guard Report, the series drogue was never tested against the parachute sea anchor. In truth, Jordon tested his series drogue against a cone-style drift sock that looks similar to an airport windsock. Jordan’s second mistake was to add weight placement to his drogue, but not to the competing drift socks. According to the CG Report, Jordan recognized how weight placement was essential. So why didn’t Jordon add weight to the drift socks? It’s been common practice since 1947 to use chain weight for parachute sea anchors? If it works for the parachute sea anchor and the series drogue, why not the drift socks?
Obviously, you didn't read the report very well... First, I'd point out that the report doesn't state whether weight was used with the other drogues or not... the only thing the report definitively states is that weight was used with the series drogue. There is no evidence in the report one way or the other to determine whether weight was or was not used with the other drogues. This is an assumption you are making.

Second, I'd also point out that the bow-deployed parachute sea anchors were dismissed after scale model testing proved that they wouldn't successfully hold the bow to waves/wind if the rode had any slack in it, as would occur whenever the boat entered the trough between waves. This is clearly stated in 3.2.4, and is the reason why only stern-deployed drogues were tested.

AFAIK, none of the parachute sea anchor manufacturers recommend deploying their devices from the stern of the boat. BTW, real world experience with parachute-type sea anchors has proven that they do have problems if any slack forms in the rode.

Section 3.3.2 says:

Quote:
A variety of drogue designs were tested, including cone drogues with both rigid and flexible hoops, parachute drogues, and a novel design called a series drogue.
However, the test also notes that the large parachute style drogue and the series drogue do not display the tendency of the smaller parachute drogues or cone-based drogues to collapse when not under load.

Quote:
Furthermore, it’s not very cool to credit Donald Jordan as the “brainchild” (inventor) for other peoples hard work. In truth, the series drogue concept was originally patented by E.J. Pagan in 1889 and later by Sidelnikov in 1975. Unlike Jordan, their efforts to promote their series drogue failed.
A lot of people are credited with "inventing things" that were actually invented by other people... A good example is Bill Gates and Microsoft Windows... which was clearly a rip-off of the Mac operating system that had come along prior to Windows. The fact that Ctrl-x, c, v, z, and p are used for the cut, copy, paste, undo and print commands truly shows the level of the innovation that Bill had... since those were the Mac OS commands for those functions.

As another historic example, Guglielmo Marconi is credited as the father of modern radio, when it was actually "invented" by others, including Nikola Tesla. From a PBS article on radio, Nikola Tesla and Marconi.

Quote:
Tesla filed his own basic radio patent applications in 1897. They were granted in 1900. Marconi's first patent application in America, filed on November 10, 1900, was turned down. Marconi's revised applications over the next three years were repeatedly rejected because of the priority of Tesla and other inventors.
Quote:
Finally, lets be honest about the USCG involvement with the series drogue test. In truth, the USCG makes it very clear how they only provided "an economical platform" for Jordon to conduct his studies. They never endorsed the series drogue or stated that it was the best solution. Donald Jordon and his business associates make that claim.
Can you point out where I said the USCG endorsed the Jordan Series Drogue. All I've ever said is that Don Jordan developed in it conjunction or cooperation with the US Coast Guard. To quote my original post, this is what I said:

Quote:
First, the Jordan Series drogue was developed and tested in conjunction with the US Coast Guard, and was specifically designed for helping small sailcraft survive in storm conditions, like those found during the 1979 Fastnet disaster that was Jordan’s primary motivation for developing the series drogue. It has been proven to work very successfully and protect boats using it from damage during its deployment.
If you've read more into my statement than what is actually there, that's pretty much your own damn fault and problem.

The fact that you're attacking my posts and reading facts not in evidence into various things is pretty pathetic. Anytime, someone starts quoting things out of context, generally indicates that their basically on shaky ground. I'd really like to hear your response to the questions I posed in my previous post, since I've addressed your points.
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  #76  
Old 05-14-2009
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Hmmm, I was hoping for more than a pissing match Lynnette. If you want to sell some of those things, get over it, and move onto giving some information on your better solution. Tell us why, show us why, and take the high road. Maybe I need to buy one? Use my boat as an example. What info does it take? C'mon, lets play.
So far this is what I been able to ascertain from Lynnette as why we should consider her para-anchor:

Her's is the best because she's says so!

Her's is the best because she says Dog does not tell the truth (3 times)

Her's is the best because the manufactures web site says so!

Her's is the best because she says so and if you would like to learn anything about her para-anchor go to the web site and stop asking her!

Her's is the best because she sails naked!

Her's is the best because she can cut and paste from her web site and make it look like a post on Sailnet!

I think I have covered it all and learned all I can about about Para-anchors from Lynnette, Where do I send the check? I bet that is only Question that Lynnette can answer!
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Old 05-14-2009
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Bubb—

Your next round at the AS pub is on me.. Although, I take exception to me not telling the truth... I've told the whole truth... even if Lynnette decides to makes assumptions and jump to conclusions about what I've said.
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #79  
Old 05-14-2009
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Bubb—

Your next round at the AS pub is on me.. Although, I take exception to me not telling the truth... I've told the whole truth... even if Lynnette decides to makes assumptions and jump to conclusions about what I've said.

Dog, I know you have told the truth! If fact, I was so in hope to learn first hand information. I have been looking at drogue's and para-anchors over the years.

This would have been such a good chance for us to learn from a manufacturer's rep. What is sad is the way this Para-anchor company has been represented. It does make me wonder if it is not all snake oil, as I find no compelling reason that it is not. Based on the statements from their representative.
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Last edited by bubb2; 05-14-2009 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009
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The fact that Paratech, one of Lynnette's competitors, fails to clearly mention that they have a relationship with Victor Shane and the Drag Device Database website and book on the DDDB.com website makes me wonder about the impartiality and the truth of the testimonials presented there. As I have stated previously, Don Jordan had no financial or economic motivation as he released the Jordan Series Drogue design to the public domain, and did not manufacture or have any vested interest in the JSD's production or sale. He was very open about answering any questions regarding the JSD and even giving sizing recommendations via e-mail, which is how I became acquainted with him. Over the years I had the good fortune to speak with him at length several times and correspond with him via e-mail regarding the JSD.

Lynnette's spurious attacks on Jordan being the "inventor" of the JSD as well as her attacks about the facts in the USCG study make me wonder about her credibility. Jordan's point about boats and their instability under a bow-deployed sea anchor or anchor for that matter, are pretty well founded and clearly explained on the JordanSeriesDrogue.com website. Lynnette has yet to explain how a Fiorentino Parachute-type sea anchor prevents this from occurring or how they prevent the massive shock loading that is known to occur when a large diameter parachute-type sea anchor is used.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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