Over reliance on electronics - Page 5 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree33Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 12-20-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,027
Thanks: 0
Thanked 78 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
That uses differenct techniques that can be learned basically. Things like you are off the east coast USA in June. West is where the sun sets, go west, when you see land, if no visual identification, wave madly, wait for a ship and follow, vhf the Coasties etc. one doesnt need to have precise L&L and make it to the exact destination, one merely needs to get to a safe port.
I doubt that would have worked very well here, especially when the fog comes in... Probably wasn't another human with 5 or 10 miles when I snapped this one... By the time I was back aboard, I could barely make out the beach... (Whatever the Newfies say about the changeability of their weather, trust me - it's grossly understated)



Yeah, you're probably right... Independence and self-reliance are most definitely becoming an "irrelevance" for the Modern Kroozer...

But, I suspect you're just trolling, no?

Congrats, Fish On! (grin)
Capt.aaron likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #42  
Old 12-20-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,713
Thanks: 23
Thanked 47 Times in 43 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
The proof is in the putting Mark. Your track record of miles speaks for it's self. One does not need to now how to Navigate to sail any more. Boat's sail them selves these day's. Cars Paralell park them selves, Microwaves cook pre-prepared meal's. Men don't need to know how to please their wives...the majic of electronics! I supose you are right about the future, I remember my little sister could'nt tell time on a clock that was'nt digital. I bet you are a better navigator then you let on. I just aquired my commercial radio operaters lisence, and that will be uselees some day with satalite phones. I think it's sad. I pride my self in my self sufficiancy. I don't need thousands of technitions, factory workers, and systems operaters to get up and go to work so I can cross an ocean. I need wind and the magnetic pull of the earth, and even that is'nt totally necasarry, because as you say, the sun goes up and down and Pleadeas alway's points east. I've never seen someone so proud to not know something, but some how (and you are the first), I find it humorously charming. Only because you've proven to be rather salty.
You left out you dont have to tie your shoes anymore just use the velcro strap
Capt.aaron likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #43  
Old 12-20-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,141
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
E... My gps is a hand held that uses AA batts. I turn it on a couple of times a day to check my D.R.'s.
Ok, I have an hand held GPS as a backup and a main one with a a plotter connected to the batteries. Don't you think it is safer this way? Your hand held can always stop working and that can have nothing to do with the batteries.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #44  
Old 12-20-2012
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 1,942
Thanks: 1
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 6
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Re: Over reliance on electronics

I love GPS. But I think perhaps some of the GPS champions never sail in changeable areas.

I love to sail the Delmarva area. Inlets move and often my GPS shows me on dry land. THE CG move markers--in those inlets that are marked--with the passage of every major storm. These changes will not be on your chart plotter, as they don't even make the NOAA charts; they are simply listed as "changable." This sort of close in piloting relies on and eye for the water and the lay of the shore. I've seen boats go a ground TWICE in the same spot within 30 minutes, upset because the GPS said there was a channel there! As I pulled them off, I had to gently explain that we had established that the channel wasn't there the first time I pulled them off, and that I prefer they followed me on their third attempt, just in case I was right.

The point is we must navigate by ALL means available, which requires getting the eyes up out of the cockpit.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #45  
Old 12-20-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,141
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
OK so each person manages information differently. Here's my rationale - it may not work for you.

If I'm out at sea, there is really no need to stare at a GPS, I know where I am going, I know there is nothing in my way that the GPS is going to tell me about anyway and from my last known position, I have set a course which I will sail until it is no longer relevant. So what benefit do I derive from having a GPS on all the time? None that I can see. a twice-daily position is all I need.

If I'm coastal, all I need to do is look around me and I can see anything that I'm going to hit. My GPS doesn't tell me of a reef under my keel. My chart on the other hand does. Once again I know where I am going and if I can identify the stuff that's on my chart, of what value is it to know my position? If I can't follow a coastline without a GPS running in my hand, I shouldn't be in charge of a vessel (my opinion).

..

...
I guess that it depends where you are sailing. For instance in Croatia with its 2000 islands and even a bigger number of rocks if you do that you will not have time to enjoy the scenery at all. In some places you will be changing course each 5 minutes to avoid Islands, pass between Islands, avoid rocks and so on. It is a lot easier and will give you a lot more time to enjoy the scenery if you use the plotter and plot there the courses, having the chart a as global guide for a bigger picture.

And of course if you are sailing and not motoring that is even more complicated because the variable winds between the Islands would make most of times impossible for you to hold a course and would make pretty useless your chart plotted courses or at least would oblige to frequent corrections.

Not impossible to do as you suggest, but it would be a lot more hard-work and would in some times be very difficult if you sail alone.

The last time I have done as you suggest were inside a Ria in Galiza, a place with plenty of underwater rocks and where precision was very important. I had not a digital map and had to mark the courses on the chart with frequent course changes around rocks. It was a windy day and the boat was sailing at 7.5K. I had to stop from time to time to be able to the the work on the charts and correct my position. Not easy nor agreeable and a lot less safer than with a plotter.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #46  
Old 12-20-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,141
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by milutin View Post
ahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aa

reading this I wonder how they succeeded to navigate 30 years ago,, let alone one hundred years ago.
what was it like traveling to japan 100 years ago?

those gadgets are invented for people who barely can caunt to 10 let alone to take moon or mars sight.

...
in my, almost 30 years navigation as a merchant navy officer all around the world and later cruising med and western europe..

not to mention validity of your chart plotters. 99.9% have cmaps93 downloaded from some dodgey Russian sites, (last one is from January 2011) three years old. or some avionics, navionics, garmins sd cards that are last time updated 10 years ago.

..in same time my PAPER charts are last time updated half an hour ago
You should be really old, I mean, 30 years of navigation on a merchant vessel without gadgets?

I mean, no radar, no Loran, no GPS, no Plotter? How old are you? Loran started to be used after world war II. No gadgets? I mean not even a compass? I know that the Polynesians can navigate without one, but even so compass is around for almost a 1000 years

What has identifying a Dutch banner in a boat has to do with the rest?

And why do you think it is difficult to update digital maps? Actually digital charts are made using available information (charts) and are way cheaper than paper charts. I know, I use both and by the way I use paper charts based on Russian information. They are a lot cheaper and not less accurate.

And by the way I can navigate with a sextant, if needed or can navigate by dead reckoning and coastal azimuths, in fact I have done exclusively so for many years.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #47  
Old 12-20-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,141
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
I love GPS. But I think perhaps some of the GPS champions never sail in changeable areas.

I love to sail the Delmarva area. Inlets move and often my GPS shows me on dry land. THE CG move markers--in those inlets that are marked--with the passage of every major storm. These changes will not be on your chart plotter, as they don't even make the NOAA charts; they are simply listed as "changable." This sort of close in piloting relies on and eye for the water and the lay of the shore. I've seen boats go a ground TWICE in the same spot within 30 minutes, upset because the GPS said there was a channel there! As I pulled them off, I had to gently explain that we had established that the channel wasn't there the first time I pulled them off, and that I prefer they followed me on their third attempt, just in case I was right.

The point is we must navigate by ALL means available, which requires getting the eyes up out of the cockpit.
Cannot agree more. I have said so in another thread. That does not mean you don't take advantage of the plotter and GPS. You have just to know how to use it and its limitations. I agree that many don't know they have them and think that is a magical tool 100% reliable.

I believe that the best tool available are still our eyes and ears. That does not mean that I will not take advantage of all the rest that is available, I mean, plotter/GPS, radar and AIS.

Regards

Paulo
chef2sail likes this.

Last edited by PCP; 12-21-2012 at 08:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #48  
Old 12-20-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,141
Thanks: 21
Thanked 89 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I think thats a load of bollocks. (Thats my fav word of the day. But just today)
Teaching people the old outdated school like sextant sights just bores the student. It needs to be kept relevant.
Compas swingers are a thing of the past because a compass doesnt need to be accurate anymore, its just a reference, an approximation, good enough for emergency.
...
Mark
I do not agree with you on this for the same reason you should not teach maths only with a calculator or teach someone to design only with a computer program without learning how to draw first.

When you use only machines and digital information your apprehension of reality is very poor unless you have already trained eyes to read it. for a kid used to work only with a calculator 10 000 is not very different from 100 000. Just a zero more.

It is much more easy to understand the effect of currents on a paper chart doing the work to establish your course and drawing it on the paper chart than if it is an abstract thing on a plotter. You will also develop abilities in what regard reading a chart and having it matched with what your eyes see while doing triangulation with azimuths. The difference in seeing quality is about the same as the one that takes a picture of a place and someone that draws it.

Big difference and as I have said, the eyes are our best asset and have them trained to be able to read charts and identify the reality by them is fundamental. The work with electronic charts and electronic aids is very poor in what concerns developing those abilities.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-20-2012 at 10:23 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #49  
Old 12-20-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,731
Thanks: 5
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 10
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Over reliance on electronics

I think it is negligent to go to sea and not have at least a basic understanding of navigating without electronics. The ocean is featureless, and dangerous, it isn't like you can just pull over and ask for directions if you can't find your way.

The argument has been raised that you can always have enough redundancy for GPS that you don't need to know the basics, but that doesn't make any sense because it presumes that having a fix is all there is to navigation, and it isn't.

Go look at Bowditch, it devotes 5 chapters to electronic navigation, only one of which is for GPS, and another for chart plotting, 6 chapters are devoted to celestial navigation ... Gosh, I wonder what the other 26 chapters of the book are about ?
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #50  
Old 12-21-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,713
Thanks: 23
Thanked 47 Times in 43 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Over reliance on electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by wind_magic View Post
I think it is negligent to go to sea and not have at least a basic understanding of navigating without electronics. The ocean is featureless, and dangerous, it isn't like you can just pull over and ask for directions if you can't find your way.

The argument has been raised that you can always have enough redundancy for GPS that you don't need to know the basics, but that doesn't make any sense because it presumes that having a fix is all there is to navigation, and it isn't.

Go look at Bowditch, it devotes 5 chapters to electronic navigation, only one of which is for GPS, and another for chart plotting, 6 chapters are devoted to celestial navigation ... Gosh, I wonder what the other 26 chapters of the book are about ?
Yes I think you need to be accomplished in both. A we age we cannot fight the fact tha tecnology increases faster than we age and sometimes it means moderating our staid ideas of what is better/ right. Modern means using electrontics make help increase safety in leaps and bounds. It has its limitations and as some say false sense of secutiry built into using it, but if you recogize that, the prudet moder sailor can be adept in both.

BTW for most of us celestrail navagation is worthless and will continue to be IMHO and yes I was taught and once used it when crossing the Atlantic 37 year ago.

While I aree with the first couple of paragaphs, the Bowditch example is not really a good one. Theier last major change was 1995. hardly modern



Bowditch

The present volume, while retaining the basic format of the 1958 version, reorganizes the subjects, deletes obsolete text, and adds new material to keep pace with the extensive changes in navigation that have taken place in the electronic age.

This 1995 edition of the American Practical Navigator incorporates extensive changes in organization, format, and content. Recent advances in navigational electronics, communications, positioning, and other technologies have transformed the way navigation is practised at sea, and it is clear that even more changes are forthcoming. The changes to this edition of Bowditch are intended to ensure that this publication remains the premier reference work for practical marine navigation. Concerted efforts were made to return to Nathaniel Bowditch’s original intention "to put down in the book nothing I can’t teach the crew." To this end, many complex formulas and equations have been eliminated, and emphasis placed on the capabilities and limitations of various navigation systems and how to use them, instead of explaining complex technical and theoretical details. This edition replaces but does not cancel former editions, which may be retained and consulted as to navigation methods not discussed herein.

The former Volume II has been incorporated into the primary volume to save space and production cost. For similar reasons, the book is now published on a larger page size. These two changes allow the publisher to present a single, comprehensive navigation science reference which explains modern navigational methods while respecting traditional ones. The goal of the changes was to put as much useful information before the navigator as possible in the most understandable and readable format.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
mounting nav desk electronics janders Gear & Maintenance 16 03-05-2009 11:30 AM
Electronics show warns fear* of change could hobble industry (The Manila Times) NewsReader News Feeds 0 01-09-2007 10:15 AM
Electronics Box overhead atennaro@optonline.net Gear & Maintenance 0 02-24-2006 10:09 AM
Marine Electronics For Dummies Bluesmoods General Discussion (sailing related) 4 04-09-2003 03:19 PM
Marine Electronics For Dummies Bluesmoods Gear & Maintenance 1 04-07-2003 11:56 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012