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  #31  
Old 06-04-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnvye View Post
I am a fan of the RCMP, they didn't decide to start doing this. Someone from the U.S. has convinced Canada to co-ordinate law enforcment tactics on both sides of the border. This is now what we have... a U.S. led initiative to make us like them. Overkill..... just my opinion....it really doesn't mean much.. John
John,

No offense here, but exactly how is it the fault of the USA that Candian law enforcement is being nasty?? You are your own, soverighn country as I recall and it is yours to do with or without as you wish. Personally, I find your claim that it is our fault down here that your people are not being nice up there a bit frustrating.

Give me a break. If there was even a shred of truth that the US is telling how each individual law enforcement person should act, then the problem again is not that of the US - it is a deep Canadian problem. Quit blaming everything on us for pity's sake. When I read that (and most American's I would imagine), it pisses us off. Take responsibility for your own actions. If the circumstances were reversed, it would irritate you to read that too.

- CD
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
It's about the same with any service personnel. If you go into a McDonald's and are nice to the clerk, you'll get your burger and fries. If you're not nice, you'll get your burger and fries and a dollop of phlegm. It's almost always best to be nice to service personnel.
A better analogy is the suggestion (actually made to me by a friend in the service industry) that you ought to tip well at a restaurant, even if you get bad service, because if you go back, you might just get served a dollop of phlegm, or worse. Basically, the principle that it's okay for us to be held hostage by the service industry, or by the cops, or whoever.

If I thought that the cooks at a restaurant would defile my food because I didn't tip well last time, I wouldn't go back to that restaurant.

You're basically suggesting that even if the cops violate our rights, we should still be polite to them, because if we escalate the situation, they will follow suit.
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
Moreso, it is their function to use violence to get what they want. I for one, do not respect it. For instance, the Seattle police recently beat a 14 year old girl, and sent an innocent man into a permanent coma in 2 seperate incidents.
At risk of going even further off-topic, but in defense of the Seattle Police Department, both the incidents mentioned in fact involved only King County Sheriff personnel. My dealing with SPD, on and off the water, have been uniformly positive; the sheriff's department, on the other hand, has some serious systemic problems which has lead to a large number of deplorable incidents in recent years. I recommend reading the Seattle PI's "Conduct Unbecoming" series if you happen to be local to the Puget Sound region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormom
My experience with law enforcement and others has been that your attitude determines the treatment you receive in return. If you're respectful and cooperative, you'll usually be treated with respect. If you are uncooperative and let them know what you think of them, and argue about their right to do whatever they're doing, they'll be curt and more insistent. If you use force to resist them, they'll swarm you, wrestle you to the ground and handcuff you behind the back, and take you to jail.
This is absolutely true, and as someone else said, respect and politeness should be the bare minimum in attitude on either side of the police/citizen interaction. In between all the petty BS they are often mandated to inflict on us, even the jerks among law enforcement do dangerous, important work helping to keep our society safe and well-ordered. They deserve at least a rudimentary level of respect from each of us at the outset. And should anyone get nasty and abusive with them, I think they are justified in forcing compliance.

On the other hand, this isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. They may be nice to you if you are nice to them, but it doesn't mean that what they are asking is necessarily right or reasonable in a free society.

CD's point is well-taken too. I still sympathize if these attitudes are leaking north across the border, but Canada isn't our little brother... the Canadian government is ultimately responsible in deciding how to run your country and enforce your laws. I know that it's been a habit with some US administrations to lean on Canada to do things the "American" way... but I always cheer a little bit when I see Canada tell them to stick it. Absolutely one of my favorite countries in the world... don't go changing!
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  #34  
Old 06-04-2009
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You're basically suggesting that even if the cops violate our rights, we should still be polite to them, because if we escalate the situation, they will follow suit.
I think you distorted what sailorman6 said by mixing in what your service industry buddy said.
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  #35  
Old 06-04-2009
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I did a quick google search of Canadian authority to conduct vessel inspections and got several hits for commercial craft and fishing vessels, but didn't find anything definitive yet on their authority to board anchored pleasure vessels.

Does anyone know for sure, one way or the other?
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  #36  
Old 06-04-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erps View Post
I did a quick google search of Canadian authority to conduct vessel inspections and got several hits for commercial craft and fishing vessels, but didn't find anything definitive yet on their authority to board anchored pleasure vessels.

Does anyone know for sure, one way or the other?
You will need a Canadian Admirality Lawyer to explain that one. But then you could ask the RCMP about it also... Officers do need to understand the basis of their authority in order for them to do their jobs.
One of your questions could be: Could you please explain where I could find in the law books your authority to board yachts?
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  #37  
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Being boarded under way by any bureaucratic organization can be frustrating at best. Add to that, an over zealous, discourteous offical can be a more than infuriating experience. Especially to those that spend time and money to comply with all the rules/regs. of local, state and federal mandates...which can be conflicting and confusing. After my last 18 years of EVERYDAY dealing with airport security and since the TSA was formed, I FEEL your pain.

That said, I think we all have to consider another aspect in all this. That would be location. In my fishing days, I loved fishing at Port Canaveral and would frequently be boarded for safety equipment inspections (though I suspect it was just to see what we had on board). Never had a problem with that, was always treated with respect and I responded with nothing but cooperation and courtesy. All the guns may have had something to do with that!

In ports/areas like Canaveral, the level of security is mandated by the presence of a few military tracting ships, nuclear submarines, NASA recovery ships, major cargo shipping and the all present pax liners with BIG freakin' EARS on 'em! As I expected, I was often boarded because of the area I was fishing in. Necessary evil...I think.

If you're cruising/day sailing/fishing in an area of 'high profile', I would expect a few boardings/inspections and try to make a 'hard' situation as palatable as possible for all concerned. Man, how times have changed.
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Twenty five years ago, I was in Friday Harbour and watched several Coast Guard vessels check virtually every vessel that left the harbour one day. I was shocked, quite frankly. I feel one should be able to spend a day with friends, out on the water, without having armed intervention. I have been boarded by the U.S. Coast guard several times and finally just stopped heading south.
Now, my own country has adopted a similar policy. I understand that our government doesn't HAVE to comply with a request from the U.S. government to synchronize law enforce techniques, but apparently we have.
Do I believe there was pressure from Washington to do so....yes.
Last week, we learned on the news that U.S. law enforcement officials will be riding on Canadian vessels and our Mounties with be hanging out with the U.S.Coast Guard during enforcement exercises. If someone can explain to me why this is necessary, I would like to hear it.
I have heard, but not seen, that there are high speed inflatables that cruise the San Juan Islands with 50cal machine guns mounted on the bow.
Way too much policing. ps: I am enjoying reading this thread though.
It has been a subject I have been dying to discuss with my fellow boaters.
My apologies to anyone who has been offended. I fly to the U.S. regularly and love your country. I do, however, prefer a British style of law enforcement...so far, we are still allowed to question authority.
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  #39  
Old 06-04-2009
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Quote:
But then you could ask the RCMP about it also... Officers do need to understand the basis of their authority in order for them to do their jobs.
I agree Bosun, and I asked Johnvye that but didn't get an answer.

Quote:
I have heard, but not seen, that there are high speed inflatables that cruise the San Juan Islands with 50cal machine guns mounted on the bow.
I"ve seen that myself, although I think they're a smaller caliber, but machine guns nonetheless.

Quote:
Last week, we learned on the news that U.S. law enforcement officials will be riding on Canadian vessels and our Mounties with be hanging out with the U.S.Coast Guard during enforcement exercises. If someone can explain to me why this is necessary, I would like to hear it.
Could be something called "cooperative enforcement" generally encouraged among agencies.

John, how long have you been out? It would be nice to have Andy and Barney interacting with citizens down here too, but they might have gotten shot on their first day on the job in some of our larger cities. Anyway, I've been boating the San Juans, Gulf Islands and further north for over 20 years and haven't been boarded yet. Knock on wood.
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  #40  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erps View Post
I did a quick google search of Canadian authority to conduct vessel inspections and got several hits for commercial craft and fishing vessels, but didn't find anything definitive yet on their authority to board anchored pleasure vessels.

Does anyone know for sure, one way or the other?
A friend of mine was boarded by a fairly senior Corporal from the RCMP marine division. He asked the officer the same question about being boarded while at anchor, docked or at a mooring buoy. According to this officer, a search warrant is required to board if challenged. The old question of "do you mind if we come aboard" is frequently used? You have every right to refuse here in Canada... and rightly so.
Now, that said, this information is two years old but I don't think it has changed. I refused to let an RCMP officer aboard while at anchor and he didn't push the issue. I was friendly and polite to him but he wasn't happy about it. Tough. This is my residence. Get used to disappointment. I insist on living in a "free" country.... or at least as free as humanly possible.
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