Tell EPA to Wait on Ethanol Increase

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by joethecobbler

I got a diesel. If they put it in diesel I'll make my own fuel. diesels with run on just about anything.
But, it sucks for gas motors. Alot of people having trouble w/ it. I heard it tears up the fiberglass fuel tanks ! and hoses and such as well.
I would think that the alcohol/ethenol would draw alot of moisture into the fuel also ?

Though biodiesel is OK in cars, it has been a failure in stand-by applications, and boats are like that.

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by k1vsk

Recognizing that the boating community represents a tiny fraction of the carbon emission problem from gasoline combustion, it seems doubtful there would be any impact if EVERYONE wrote comments against the E increase. The reality is that we are not representative of the larger issue.

If it makes that much difference to you, why not just use E-free fuel in your engines? It is widely available.

And I would bet that is where the serious gallons go.

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that K1vsk has never let facts get in the way of what he posts.

[pdqaltair]

In 2008 the Highway trust fund required an $8 billion bailout, in part becuase ethanol does not pay road tax.

Much of the "stimulus" money is going to go to fill the new hole in the trust fund that has formed since the 2008 bailout. The fund is almost empty again.

Ethanol is subsidized at about $0.50 per gallon.

MPG is effected, as explained.

Any improvment for the environment or global warming has been dismissed. Too many trees cut to plant corn.

Corn prices, and thus all groceries, are forced up. The impact on relations to other contries are effected, and there is no doubt amoung rational people that thousands have died of starvation as the result of higher food prices. No welfare in the 3rd world.


We are just a bunch of stupid, ugly Americans. Just stupid public policy disguised behind the new global warming religion.

[copacabana]

Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new ‘green’ fuels it’s astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn’t be happier. It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral). It’s also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What’s the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn’t know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don’t believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?

[sailingdog]

Obviously, you're not letting facts get in the way of your post. It has been proven that the E10 gasoline was attacking older fiberglass gasoline tanks. Alcohol can damage things that gasoline doesn't touch because it is both polar on one end and non-polar on the other... It can also act to emulsify water and gasoline.

Ethanol is not carbon neutral. Given that most of the ethanol in this country is made from corn and that petroleum derived fertilizers and petroleum fueled equipment is used to plant, grow, harvest and process the corn and turn it into ethanol, it is not as green or sustainable a fuel as the propagandists would like you to believe.

It also doesn't burn so clean that the exhaust is safe to breathe... go ahead, and do that for a while and see if the carbon monoxide doesn't kill you... it will...

While they're not cutting down forest in the USA, they are cutting down valuable rainforest in South America to make more room for ethanol-production corn stocks.

Originally Posted by copacabana

Saying that ethanol can hurt your tanks or engine is just rubbish. If they can stand up to gasoline, which can remove paint and dissolve rubber, it can take ethanol, which is so mild you can use it to clean sensitive electronics. There is so much misinformation when it comes to the new ‘green’ fuels it’s astonishing. I run my car on 100% ethanol and I couldn’t be happier. It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral). It’s also a renewable resource, employs a great deal of people and, although imperfect, is a step toward the inevitable weaning off oil. What’s the big deal with 10% or 15% ethanol content in your gas? You wouldn’t know it was there unless someone told you it was. Furthermore, I really don’t believe people are cutting down forest in the US to plant corn to make ethanol. Where did you get this information from?

[WouldaShoulda]

Originally Posted by copacabana

It’s less than half the price at the pump, burns so clean you can put your nose to the tailpipe and it just has a faint alcohol smell and it is “good” for the environment (carbon neutral).

When it burns, it makes CO2, yes??

[pdqaltair]

Why? Because it makes VOC emissions worse. Every locality where e-10 is used has to file for a summer vapor pressure exemption because it has ~ 15% more volatile material. No, it is NOT the alcohol that is volatile - it is less volatile than gas; it MAKES the gasoline more volatile.

Yes, these are also facts that can be verified on the net or in the lab.

Yes, alcohol can make a fine fuel, if everything is engineered for it. What rubs me is the exemptions and subsidies. Either they can make it stand on its own feet or they cannot, and they cannot. They can't use environmental regulation - where statutory authority exists - because they CAN'T MAKE A SCIENTIFIC CASE THAT IT IS BETTER. They can make the case in the pres, but not with facts, where it counts.

Remove ALL of the subsidies and let ethanol stand on its own. That is all I ask.

[copacabana]

Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don’t use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I’m not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don’t put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it’s not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It’s not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is ‘neutralized’ by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You’re not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether
I still can’t believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I’m not an expert, but I’d have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it’s not my area of expertise so I’m open to contrary views, backed up with facts.

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by copacabana

Sailingdog, I think perhaps you should get your facts straight. Please tell me where in South America they are cutting forest to plant corn? Also, they don’t use corn to make ethanol in South America, they use sugarcane, which is much more efficient. Corn is used in the US and is not as efficient, which is why the US subsidizes ethanol. And obviously I’m not suggesting that one can breath the gases from a tailpipe burning ethanol so don’t put silly words in my mouth. My point was that it burns so clean that it gives off no odour. Have you ever seen smoke from an alcohol fire? What is the residue after alcohol evaporates? Furthermore, while it’s not perfect, it is a step toward freedom from oil. It’s not for every country, but it really works for Brazil. Every country will have to find its own solution for its energy needs as we wean ourselves off oil. Finally, I said it was carbon neutral. By this I mean that the carbon given off when alcohol is burned is ‘neutralized’ by the carbon that the sugarcane removes from the air. You’re not adding more carbon the atmosphere like you are when you burn oil. Whether this carbon has an effect on global warming is another issue altogether
I still can’t believe that alcohol is harsher than gasoline for a fiberglass tank. I’m not an expert, but I’d have to see PROOF to believe that alcohol can harm fiberglass. Gasoline can strip paint and dissolve other petroleum products (which resin is as well, by the way). Anyhow, it’s not my area of expertise so I’m open to contrary views, backed up with facts.

Which is the stronger solvent, water or gasoline? Ask a block of salt or a solid iron bar. So, comparisons of the sort you make are silly at best. They are off the point.

Try growing sugar cane in the US and let us know how it goes. Our farmers are smart - corn gives the best cellulose yield per acre.

How are the rain forests holding up? I think they are fading far more quickly than our forests, which is what we hope to avoid. We have made that mistake before, cutting much of the wood in the US. I hope you can realize that risk before you, as a country, make the same terrible mistake we did. Learn from our errors. Learn from the errors of Haiti.

There is a saying in the US: "different horses for different courses." The correct solution in Brazil is not always correct elsewhere. I am sure that US solutions in Brazil would be a poor fit too. I don't mean to imply that using ethanol in Brazil is wrong. I suspect it is the right answer for you, at this time. But that may change too. I don't know. Keep you eyes open.