Tell EPA to Wait on Ethanol Increase

[copacabana]

As I said, I'm not an expert on sovents, but we're talking about fiberglass, not salt. I'll wager a lump of fiberglass in a bottle of alcohol holds up pretty well, but what do I know?

I know that sugarcane doesn't grow in the US (except southern Florida) and that corn is your best alternative. My point is that corn doesn't make cheap or viable alcohol. Alcohol in Brazil is viable because of the abundance of arable land, climate, regular rainfall and fertile soil. Before you go off spouting about the rainforests, you should know that sugarcane is grown, primarily, in the southeast of Brazil (mainly the state of São Paulo) and on land that has been used for agriculture for a LONG time. No one is cutting forest to plant sugarcane. And yes, it is a question of different horses for different courses. Every country has to look at the most viable options for producing energy. Maybe it's thermal power on volcanic vents in Iceland or biodiesel in Canada. Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has. And by the way, it's not subsidized and still costs half the price of gas at the pump. I am fully in agreement that the US ethanol content is political and a waste of taxpayers' money. You'll have to find your own solution. I only made my original post to say that one shouldn't worry about 10 or 15% ethnanl in gas. It makes no real difference to your car. For decades it has been added to gas in Brazil, even before flex engines, with no consequences.

How did this suddenly get so political anyway?

[copacabana]

By the way, cellulose is for making paper. Alcohol is made from sugar.

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by copacabana

As I said, I'm not an expert on sovents, but we're talking about fiberglass, not salt. I'll wager a lump of fiberglass in a bottle of alcohol holds up pretty well, but what do I know?

I know that sugarcane doesn't grow in the US (except southern Florida) and that corn is your best alternative. My point is that corn doesn't make cheap or viable alcohol. Alcohol in Brazil is viable because of the abundance of arable land, climate, regular rainfall and fertile soil. Before you go off spouting about the rainforests, you should know that sugarcane is grown, primarily, in the southeast of Brazil (mainly the state of São Paulo) and on land that has been used for agriculture for a LONG time. No one is cutting forest to plant sugarcane. And yes, it is a question of different horses for different courses. Every country has to look at the most viable options for producing energy. Maybe it's thermal power on volcanic vents in Iceland or biodiesel in Canada. Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has. And by the way, it's not subsidized and still costs half the price of gas at the pump. I am fully in agreement that the US ethanol content is political and a waste of taxpayers' money. You'll have to find your own solution. I only made my original post to say that one shouldn't worry about 10 or 15% ethnanl in gas. It makes no real difference to your car. For decades it has been added to gas in Brazil, even before flex engines, with no consequences.

How did this suddenly get so political anyway?

And because we are all paying for it. That makes us angry.

By the way, many types of fiberglass do not do well with alcohol, not at all. Not instant failures, but serious problems after a year. Newer tank resins are OK, but pre-1990 FRP tanks generally are not.

[pdqaltair]

Originally Posted by copacabana

By the way, cellulose is for making paper. Alcohol is made from sugar.

Alcohol is not exactly made from sugar in the US. A corn mash is cooked, where malt (germinating wheat or corn) converts starch into sugar, which the yeast then make into ethanol. Same with beer, wiskey, gin, and many other starch-based drinks. Rum, of course, is from cane and does not require this step.

Cellulose is for paper. Cellulistic ethanol is the holy grail in the US, but is not commercially practical at this time. However, some alcohol is made that way.

[sailaway21]

Brazil is energy independent not because of ethanol but because her territorial waters contain the largest oil deposits discovered in the last fifty years.

Using food stocks such as cane sugar or corn to make fuel is foolish at best. One could ask the residents of the African continent who now compete for basic raw food materials with the bio-refining industries.

Burn Ethanol and Starve an African. catchy, no?

Science magazine on the matter. Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In

I'm sure copa meant to inform us that they were clearing land near Sao Paolo for increased sugar cane production, while they were clearing the Amazon lands for soybean production, to make biodiesel. It's all in the details.

[copacabana]

I think we're going to have to move this over to the 'off topic' forum!
Sailaway, I'll well aware of Brazil's oil reserves and it's bright future supplying oil to your country. If you read what I wrote you'll see that I said "Brazil is self-sufficient in energy partially due to the alcohol program it has." It's something you can't appreciate until you come here and see for yourself. Every car made in Brazil today (and for more than a decade) has a "flex" engine that burns alcohol or gas. Alcohol is the fuel of choice. It's much cheaper. Alcohol is at every pump. It has helped Brazil to acheive its self-sufficiency in energy. Again, no forest is being cut down in the southeast of Brazil to plant sugarcane. It was all cut down generations ago for coffee, oranges and other crops. There is a lot of arable land in Brazil.
A final point. Bio fuels don't have a lick of consequence on commodity prices. Both corn and sugar prices are low right now and it's not because there is less being used for bio fuels. Commodity prices have been subject to a lot of speculation in the markets. It's poppycock that making alcohol in Brazil takes food off people's plates in Africa. I'm sorry, but you must look deeper into this to understand what's happening. Brazil isn't growing sugarcane at the expense of food, although this might be the case elsewhere. The grain market, like other markets, is heavily manipulated by 'investors' and it is perhaps one of the least regulated of them all. Anyhow, I didn't want to get into a political debate, all I wanted to say was DON'T WORRY ABOUT 10 or 15% ALCOHOL IN YOUR TANK- IT WON"T HURT YOUR CAR! Sheesh! ...

[sailaway21]

Oh, and gasoline doesn't dissolve paint, at least not very well. (g)

[copacabana]

But it sure strips it off metal! I learned that the hard way ...

[SEMIJim]

Originally Posted by copacabana

... all I wanted to say was DON'T WORRY ABOUT 10 or 15% ALCOHOL IN YOUR TANK- IT WON"T HURT YOUR CAR! Sheesh! ...

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Sailnet is a sailing forum. We're talking about the detrimental effects of ethanol on boat engines and fuel delivery systems--detrimental effects that have been well-documented.

Jim

[camaraderie]

Copa...here's the documentation you asked for. Now shut the hell up about how it isn't bad for boaters.

BoatUS.com - Seaworthy Magazine

An excerpt:
"
The reports are all remarkably similar—a black sludge coats intake manifolds and builds up on intake valves, which soon destroys the engine. Most of the reports still involve fiberglass tanks made before the mid-80’s by notable manufacturers such as Hatteras, Bertram, and Chris Craft. We’ve even received reports from owners of small outboard powered boats that had been using portable fiberglass tanks.
Fiberglass/Ethanol Test Results
BoatU.S. sponsored lab test on two badly deteriorated fiberglass tanks to help confirm that the problems were indeed being caused by ethanol. The results, as expected, were not encouraging; though the report is full of hard to pronounce chemical names and expensive sounding equipment, the bottom line is that the tests indicate that two fuel tanks have undergone aggressive degradation—losing up to 40% of their strength. The report goes on to say that there is “resin softening and loss of adhesion between fiber and resin, evidenced by a moderate loss in both strength and stiffness.”

An independent test done by New Hampshire Materials Laboratory seems to indicate that ethanol reacts with chemicals in the resins and causes a reaction much like osmotic blistering, only at a much faster rate. The report says that ethanol dissolves uncured phthalates in the fiberglass (the same chemical that can cause osmotic blistering of a boat’s hull), which then pass through the engine’s filters and get deposited on the intake components.
Finally, chemical resistance data from a leading epoxy supplier showed that even epoxy can be attacked by ethanol. The test was made using the company's most resistant epoxy and exposing fiberglass lab samples to 10% ethanol gas and regular unleaded gas as well as diesel and aviation gas. The results for the ethanol gas showed a 10% loss in hardness and a 10-15% loss of compressive strength over a 16-week period and it’s likely that the loss of hardness and strength would continue to fall at a similar rate. The unleaded gas, diesel, and aviation gasoline tests, none of which contained ethanol, showed virtually no loss of strength.