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Drinking at anchor

29K views 106 replies 54 participants last post by  Capt.aaron 
#1 ·
Hello,

I spent my holiday weekend aboard my Seidelmann 299. It was the first sail after over a year of hard work trying to restore the boat to its former glory :eek:
After spending most of the day sailing I dropped the anchor on the Hudson river and started enjoying the rest of the day. I hardly ever drink and this weekend was no different. About an hour after we dropped the anchor we were approached by Coast Guard. They tried really hard to find something to write me up for but fortunately they failed :) However, they did tell me that I am lucky that I am not drunk because I would be going with them... I rarely drink but I was under the impression that if you are at anchor you are legal to drink.
Am I wrong here or were they trying to intimidate me? I am not trying to put down CG because they are there when you need them save your life but this one guy in particular had something to prove.
I hope everyone had a great holiday weekend!
 
#46 ·
JRP I'll respond briefly as I feel that this thread is already wandering away from the very good question about drinking at anchor. The accusations of crimes by mail happened after both incidents, but aren't really relevant to the OP's question. Neither was resolved satisfactorily.

My intent in writing the "the case in point" was to address the issue raised that the USCG will always use their judgment appropriately when enforcing laws. My case was meant to give an example of my experience when it appeared to not be used appropriately.

I don't believe they should protect me from myself. Stupidity has never successfully been outlawed, nor do I believe it is the responsibility of the state to try and do so.

Here is part of my original "case in point" post:

-----------
I appreciate the comments about the seamanship of maintaining sobriety at anchor, but the point, for me, is what's LEGAL? Should we drink to excess at anchor? Probably not, we could suddenly be in a situation where we need all of our faculties. Should we drink at home while cooking? Probably not, as we might set the kitchen and house on fire and need to act quickly but the difference is that nobody is going to barge into your kitchen at home and breathalize you!

I strongly prefer to be the ultimate judge of what I consider safe on my vessel thank you very much, and the jingoist laws enforced by the state get in my way and tick me off. It is entirely possible that if we find out that you can get a BUI at anchor, then we can all get them living aboard at the slip.
-----------


My personal experience is that good judgment regarding enforcement is not always used, therefore I always try and remain within the law so it never becomes an issue. Which brings me back to the OP's question.

I would love to find out what our rights and responsibilities are in this matter. I would love to know if you can get a BUI at anchor or living aboard at the dock. Lets see if we can answer that.

MedSailor
 
#47 ·
...Which brings me back to the OP's question.

I would love to find out what our rights and responsibilities are in this matter. I would love to know if you can get a BUI at anchor or living aboard at the dock. Lets see if we can answer that.

MedSailor
Definitely. This is still a good question, and I agree that we don't seem to have a definitive answer yet. I like the Canadian approach, which seems to show common sense. I had always assumed the U.S. had similar rules (but of course it would vary from state to state.)

Except for blatant cases of public drunkenness, I have never heard of anyone being bothered by marine police (CG or other) for drinking while at anchor.
 
#48 ·
In regards to the situation of drinking in the dinghy; I'll say that while I agree that there is little reason for the USCG (or Sheriff) to hassle someone, I also can see where they are coming from. Just 6 months ago a boat owner in my marina returning from an evening of dinner and drinks fell overboard while exiting his dinghy to board his docked boat. He quickly was overcome by hypothermia (50 deg water) and drown right in the marina. He was not found until the next afternoon beneath the pump-out dock. Had he not been intoxicated he might not have fallen in while boarding his vessel; but he was and the consensus was that it was a big contributor to his death.

Lots of resources were spent on the SAR for him right in the marina; people put their own life in harms way diving in the black water at night looking for his body. I think if he had walked back to his boat he would probably still be alive; though he also could have fallen climbing aboard from the dock as well. But I think it was a preventable death; mainly caused by his BUI.

The presence of a six-pack with the operator in the dinghy and two empty cans is NOT, let me repeat, NOT necessarily a BUI, nor is it probable cause that the operator will drink to excess. What if the operator decided that he would sit/row in the dinghy for 3 hours and have 2 beers per hour? What would his weight corrected BAC be at the end of 3 hours? (probably legal) The question is what was the operators BAC at the time the USCG arrived? Did you blow a .06 wet&wreckless (in your rubber boat LOL) or were you below .04? I could see their concern since the boat had an outboard; but technically you were not underway since you were tied to your anchored sailboat.

It's probably the blatant drunkenness by the stinkpotters in places like Lake Havasu and in the delta areas that have upped the scrutiny of the USCG over all people who consume alcohol while on the water. Remember, those guys remain 100% dry while they are out performing their duties; and they harvest the carnage from all of the intoxicated goofballs who slaughter innocent non-drunken boaters (and drunken passengers).
 
#64 ·
Lots of resources were spent on the SAR for him right in the marina. people put their own life in harms way diving in the black water at night looking for his body. I think if he had walked back to his boat he would probably still be alive; though he also could have fallen climbing aboard from the dock as well. But I think it was a preventable death; mainly caused by his BUI.
I have often wondered why anyone would risk a life looking for a body. (individual cases may differ slightly - this gets me off the hook :D If you are looking for mine after 2-3 hours of assured immersion in 50 degree water you can take a break and do it slowly, or just wait for nature to take it's course.
 
#49 ·
In the Connecticut Statutes, Sec. 15-133. Rules for safe operation. Operation of vessel while under the influence of liquor or drugs. Penalties. Records of conviction., "operating" a vessel is well-defined:

For purposes of this section and sections 15-140l, 15-140n, 15-140o and 15-140q, "operate" means that the vessel is underway or aground and not moored, anchored or docked.

So, it would seem that while moored, anchored or docked in Connecticut, you won't run afoul of CT state law if enjoying an adult beverage (or two) after settling in for the night.

However, the earlier posts advising caution for at least the knowledgeable, responsible party (especially when anchored) would seem to be very prudent guidance since "dragging anchor" would still present a possible risk if all are partaking (as you'll likely be considered "underway" if your anchor breaks free).

Bill
O'Day 302 - "Antares"

 
#50 ·
Michigan Statutes read similarly:
NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994
324.80103 Definitions; M to O.

Sec. 80103.

As used in this part:
...
(g) "Operate" means to be in control of a vessel while the vessel is under way and is not secured in some manner such as being docked or at anchor.
...
However: The lake upon which we boat, Lake St. Clair, I believe is a federal "connected waterway." (I think that's the term.) So it's possible federal law preempts state law. The lake and connected rivers, creeks and canals are patrolled by county sheriffs, USCG and DHS CBP - we see them all. On the water and in the air.

Jim
 
#51 ·
We were stopped and boarded while returning from a winter series race at the Berkely circle. It had rained all day, temp was in the 30's surprised it did not snow. We were soaked and cold, the Coast Guard Cutter instructed us to stop and be boarded. He jumped from the bow of the little cutter and broke the fiberglass whip VHF antenna has he landed in the cockpit like a wet beached seal. Adjusting his hat and gathering himself he started to go down a check list from squeezing the life vests, inspecting flares, checking the fire extinguishers, listening to the horn........... As if the safety inspection was a justification for the complete inspection of every cubic inch of stowage. There was nothing to find but a couple cans of soup in the bilge that had corroded and started to leak. We received our copy of the inspection and he departed. It took a couple months for the C.G. to respond to the request for reinbursement for the replacement antenna, but they came through. After docking and a change into dry clothes, we chatter over a couple cups of hot coffee and we believed that they were doing an inspection for smuggled contraband based on the complete cavity search that they performed on the boat in the name of a safety inspection. This has been my only experience with the G.C. Now living inland and sailing on lakes we have the TWRA, but is another story for another day....
 
#52 ·
These are the CFRs - States and other municipalities may have their own rules.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: Title 33 Part 177

Title 33: Navigation and Navigable Waters
PART 177-CORRECTION OF ESPECIALLY HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS

This part prescribes rules to implement section 4308 of Title 46 United States Code which governs the correction of especially hazardous conditions on recreational vessels and uninspected passenger vessels on waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and, for a vessel owned in the United States, on the high seas . . .

§ 177.03 Definitions.
(d) Operator means the person who is in control or in charge of a boat while it is in use.
(e) Use means operate, navigate, or employ.

§ 177.07 Other unsafe conditions.
(b) That is operated by an individual who is apparently under the influence of alcohol or a dangerous drug, as defined in §95.020 of this chapter, to the extent that, in the boarding officer's discretion, the continued operation of the vessel would create an unsafe condition.

§ 177.05 Action to correct an especially hazardous condition.
An operator of a boat who is directed by a Coast Guard Boarding Officer to take immediate and reasonable steps necessary for the safety of those aboard the vessel, under section 4308 of Title 46, United States Code, shall follow the direction of the Coast Guard Boarding Officer, which may include direction to:
(b) Proceed to a mooring, dock, or anchorage;
 
#56 · (Edited)
These are the CFRs - States and other municipalities may have their own rules.

...
§ 177.03 Definitions.
...
(e) Use means operate, navigate, or employ.
Nice catch-all they're rigged, there: Even if you're in your slip, you're "employing" your boat. Hell, one of my club-mates was over-nighting on his boat this spring while she was still on the hard. In doing that, he was "employing" his boat.

Oh yeah, and wasn't there something about the U.S. government wanting to extend their grip to state waters by re-defining basically anything "wet" to be "navigable waters?" Wonderful.

Jim
 
#62 ·
In order to get a DUI you must show the intent to drive under the influence, hence why if you have the keys in the ignition even the car isn’t on you will be charged. The key in the ignition shows intent. How does this relate to boating? In order to get a BUI you must be operating a boat. In order to be operating a boat, the boat must be “underway.” Look to COMTINSTM 16672.2D (COLREGS or Rules of the Road) to define what being underway means. According to Rule 3 of COLREGS a vessel is “underway” if a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.” If your vessel is at anchor you are not underway. You are therefore not operating your boat. Now when you are anchored are you showing the proper day shapes and lights? How many sailors even keep day shapes onboard? Do you use them when anchoring? How about when motor sailing? You are required to. Below is COLREGS Rule 30 (INLAND) which discusses day shapes and lights for when anchored. There are exceptions for boats that don’t need to use them but when it comes to protecting yourself (CYOA) have them.

RULE 30
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball; and
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.
(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.
(c) A vessel at anchor may, and a vessel of 100 meters or more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks
(e) A vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor, not in or near a narrow channel, fairway, anchorage, or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule.
(f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length when aground shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (d)(i) and (ii) of this Rule.
(g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.

Bottom line. If you are acting in accordance with COLREGS, are in an anchorage, in an area that is recommended as an anchorage (via local cruising guide), or most importantly not anchored in or near a channel or major shipping route then that gives you the evidence to show that you have no intent on getting underway while you are drinking or even if you get intoxicated. Better yet, file a float plan that shows that you intend to anchor overnight in an anchorage. This way you have one more item to prove your innocence. If you do the above you have the tools to prove you had no intent to operate. This can then give you tools to protect yourself.

Even if you do all of this, you may still be harassed by law enforcement. IT happens. It sucks but it does. You have every right to record who the boarding officer is, just like you get the name of the cop that writes you a ticket. And if they treat you unfairly, file a complaint and seek redress. Write to your congressman. Send an editorial to your local newspaper. Sue for harassment. And if you win that then you can get Uncle Sam to pay for your boat. The USCG wants to ensure safety. SO be safe. Don’t drink to excess and know and follow the local regulations and laws accordingly.

And if you can’t stand to follow any of the local laws, or regulations and you want to live your life by your own rules then leave. Weight anchor and go to another country. No one forces you to live in America. It’s that simple.
 
#66 · (Edited)
Mre definitions...

Here is a relevant part of the federal code as it relates to BUI:
PART 95-OPERATING A VESSEL WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL OR A DANGEROUS DRUG; § 95.015 Operating a vessel:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

" For purposes of this part, an individual is considered to be operating a vessel when:

(a) The individual has an essential role in the operation of a recreational vessel underway, including but not limited to navigation of the vessel or control of the vessel's propulsion system.

(b) The individual is a crewmember (including an officer), pilot, or watchstander not a regular member of the crew, of a vessel other than a recreational vessel.

[CGD 84-099, 52 FR 47532, Dec. 14, 1987, as amended at USCG-2006-24371, 74 FR 11211, Mar. 16, 2009]
§ 95.020 Standard for under the influence of alcohol or a dangerous drug."

Okay, so I'm still a little unclear about part (a). If I'm the captain and I'm down below and under the influence am I still "operating a vessel" because I have "...an essential role in the operation of a recreational vessel" if it were to be underway or am I NOT operating because in order to be an operator under (a) I must be said person on a vessel that is underway? I believe it means the latter as "...a recreational vessel underway..." is a freestanding phrase in part (a).

Confused.... Anyone else better at reading legal language?
MedSailor
 
#69 ·
Authorities locate body of man missing after boats collide; female passenger in stable condition - Muskegon News - The Latest News, Blogs, Photos & Videos - MLive.com
and
Boater Found Dead In Monroe - Detroit Local News Story - WDIV Detroit

Two deaths this weekend with booze involved. There are cops on our lakes all the time. If they spent as much time checking the people driving out of bar parking lots there wouldn't be a problem with a law enforcement budget. I can't say how much beer we've drank on boats over the last thirty years but it's a lot. Have I drove a boat intoxicated before, well, let me count - uh no I don't have that many fingers and toes. Not anymore though. I'm not proud of the past but glad I've changed my ways. There is a difference between intoxicated at .08 and drunk as a skunk at .2

As far as getting arrested while at anchor or docked, it would be EXACTLY like arresting a camper for drinking in their RV. I've never heard of either before and would doubt there have been any convictions.

Regardless, I'll always give the Coast Guard their due respect. If they want to board my boat, no problem. For all you that want to give them the middle finger, I can only hope they return it when you need them.
 
#74 · (Edited)
Holiday weekends are the worst time to be on the water IMHO...but..if you are...be safe, be sober and be away from the channels...I live in south florida but the same goes for so many areas...the weekends in general are to avoided if your going to be in channels or passes down here...unless you can do so at off-peak periods...(midnight,early morning,etc). Living in a more remote areas sounds better and better to me with every passing day...I'm researching though...

Btw...on a slightly different but related note:

The feds (Border patrol) are trying to exert their power over the park rangers in Arizona...will Marine sanctuary's be next..? Boaters in the Florida keys will tell you it's already been a state of martial law there for years...you can go online and send a letter protesting this action in AZ...

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/04/20/32106/border-patrol-national-parks/

I honestly don't know all the details but I happen to think that park rangers are a good lot and can take care of their own turf/ without the Feds trying to usurp authority ...the days of Ranger Rick are gone..the new Park Rangers will likely be packing 9 mm and tazers...but let's support them in their bid to retain control of their turf and not be pushed around by Govt agencies like Border patrol...because park rangers and the public who use the parks are the best folks to regulate the lands/waters they know so well...andif they arent pushed around..I am sure the National park service will coordinate with Border Patrol in many situations depending on the issues at hand...
 
#75 ·
If throwing the hook somewhere, with the distinct possibility of having to react to slipping, other boats slipping, unpredicted thunderstorms, etc., it seems to me that it would be really stupid to be drunk, or hung over when anchored out. Waking up in the middle of the night and having to quickly react to some occurrence with cobwebs in your head is not good. A cold beer after sailing is great but you really need to limit it regardless of what the legal definition might be. I consider myself on-duty 100% of the time when out sailing. On a mooring is a different story. Has anyone ever been hassled/boarded when at a mooring?
 
#76 · (Edited)
I work in the commercial side and hold a 200 ton and drinking is strictly forbidden. I've lived aboard my sailboat, on the hook, since I was 8 years old and have spent a large amount of that time drunk ( or worse ) at anchor. The hair stands up on the back of my neck everytime I see the COAST SCOUTS zoom by in the fancy orange dingy. Those kid's from landlocked states that the COAST SCOUTS recrute are the most un-seaworthy, pencil push'n, land lubb'n, son's o' b's out there!! :hothead. I don't mean to be negative, but jeez, what gives?!! Can't a sailor safely moored bed down with a glass of rum and watch the sun set any more?!! :confused:
 
#77 ·
Was'n it Sir Chichester that when asked about all the booze he was loading on his boat reply something like "Any idiot can sail around the world, it's the truly great one's that can do it drunk" I'm not advocating drunken sailing, but drunken anchoring is a family tradition for me.:eek:
 
#79 ·
While in college, majoring in Criminal Justice, I worked summers for our local Sheriff's Office doing navigation patrol. We would routinely stop boaters for safety checks using a section of admiralty law as our justification. Of course now that I am trying to remember it I am drawing a blank, go figure. :mad: Anyhow, we did this at our own discretion and 99% of the time only looked for the basic safety gear and to engage the public in a conversation. We didn't even look for DWI's or the like we merely wanted to talk with the boater and let them know to flag us down or use channel 16 if they needed anything. I think this is one of the reasons, coupled with our mandated helpful as opposed to enforcement attitude, we were never questioned when we stopped people "for no reason." My Sheriff made it clear to us that the public was blowing off steam from the week and as long as they weren't posing a threat or overly rude we were to issue verbal warnings and send them on their way.

My concern for this tactic was our constitutionality of stopping a boater merely because "I felt like it", our Sheriff made it clear we were there to serve but what of others who are there to enforce? We also had to patrol Lake Ontario and used the same tactics on pleasure boaters there. Was that legal? Our constitution does not become null & void at the shoreline. It always bothered me but I was able to overlook it because of our helpful role.

As for how this relates to this thread, if you weren't visibly drunk, I didn't even bother to ask how much you had. Only time we asked was after an accident, which oddly enough are few and far between on the lake in question.

Brad
s/v KIVALO
 
#80 ·
I am not a maritime lawyer, but prosecuted hundreds of DUI cases in traffic court when I was young, and from the comments and quotes here, it appears that motor vehicle laws and boating laws are generally alike.

If you drive your own car to a bar and become intoxicated, and give your car keys to a designated driver, who is sober, and are then stopped on the way home by the police, you can't be cited for Operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated, because you weren't operating it.

Likewise, you can't be cited for being in physical control of a motor vehicle while intoxicated, because the designated driver has the keys, is behind the wheel, is operating the vehicle, and is in physical control of the vehicle.

If you become intoxicated while on your boat, I suggest you give your keys to an adult who is sober, and make them the designated skipper. To eliminate any doubt as to who is in control, the drunken skipper should go below and stay there. If the coasties do a check while the boat is under way, then they will see that the boat is under actual control of the person at the helm, that the person at the helm is sober, and has the keys. If the maritime laws mirror the motor vehicle laws, then the intoxicated owner should not be arrested for operating a vessel while intoxicated.

Moreover, if the boat is at anchor and the owner becomes intoxicated, give the keys to a sober adult and designate him/her the skipper, and go below and stay there, to eliminate any doubt as to who is in physical control of the boat. If the maritime laws mirror the motor vehicle laws, then the intoxicated owner should not be arrested for being in physical control of a vessel while at anchor.

Thus, whether under way or at anchor, if you become intoxicated, give your keys to another, sober adult, designate them as the skipper, and go below and lie down. The practice of using a designated driver of a car protects one from a DUI citation, and I see no reason why it shouldn't have the same effect on a vessel.
 
#81 · (Edited)
of course in a car the designated person just drives, in a boat the designated person actually has to know something about it. the term Ive seen this side of the pond is "in control of the vessel", which is of course different from "operating the vessel". This is also the term used in my insurance. My 10 year old could be "operating" the vessel, but I am clearly in "control".I very much doubt throwing the keys to a newbie whom then crashes into something, would get the skipper off. There is a whole bunch of law that prevents skippers from disassociating themselves from control of the vessel.

Vessels arnt cars and are in general covered by a completely different body of law. furthermore in a unlicensed situation pertaining in boats ( i.e. anyone to an extent can drive) the law does make these differences.

I suspect all these arguments are moot and would be decided on a case by case basis by a judge.

As to the USCG, well sorry folks Ive lived there, The US is one of the most heavily policed countries Ive every lived in and the USCG just reflect that. Can you imagine in the south of france the Gendarmerie Maritime trying to concern themselves with BUIs, they'd have to arrest half the population!!!.


Most countries have given their coastguards similar rights, but few exercise it like the USCG. of course the USCG is a branch of the military , in most countries the coastguard is an agency or a part of the police.

The other comment was made that the USCG operates in waters outside its own. In international waters it generally seeks in advance such permission to board( not from you but your flag state) or it may be operating under various treaties that allow it to board other countries vessels. Countries of the world have large numbers of mutual treaties that allow all sorts of things. I would suspect that outside of war, The USCG is on very firm legal footing when it boards anyone.

Dave
 
#89 · (Edited)
And if you lived aboard on the hook, home would be out on the anchorage. We don't endanger any body by sitting in our cockpits, anchored in a nice protected place with good holding, or sitting in a slip, properly tied to the dock and having our evening grog. I've sailed in many foriegn waters and this would not even be a discussion. Going 30 miles an hour in skiff is a different story. I think cop's and the type of people who are attracted to law enforcement as a career are intimidated by the the self sufficiant live aboard sailor. We represent a life they don't understand, so they F#$%K with us every chance they get.
I bet I've rowed back to the anchorage from the bars in the Key's, Bahamas, Caribbean, 2000 times over the last 20 something years. Any body ever anchor off Club Nautico in Cartagenia, Columbia? It's hard to adapt to the B.S. here in the states after living on the hook abroad.
 
#83 ·
Dave, if the boat is anchored, the person who is in control of it doesn't necessarily have to know anything about operating the boat. That person can just let it sit there until you sleep it off and sober up enough to operate it. Think it through logically. In that situation, if the coasties board the boat and find you below, passed out drunk in a quarterberth, and your wife is sober, and has the keys, and you don't represent a danger to other boaters, or to yourself and your wife, what are they likely to do? They can't charge you with operating a boat under the influence, because you aren't operating it. It is anchored. If you gave the keys to your wife, they probably won't charge you with being in control of it, because you aren't on deck, or behind the wheel, and you don't have the keys, which are generally regarded as an indication of who is in control. The person who has the keys is usually considered to be the person who is in control. The likelihood is that they'll tell your wife to not let you have the keys or operate the boat until you are sober, and then they'll leave.

If you get drunk while under way, I didn't suggest you turn the boat over to your 10 year old son. I suggested you turn it over to an adult. If you were so stupid as to get falling-down-drunk when you were the only person on the boat who was capable of operating it safely, then you deserve to go to jail, and there's no advice that any lawyer can give you to shield you from such stupidity. But, if your 30 year old brother-in-law is there and can safely operate the boat, then turn it over to him, give him the keys, and go below and sleep it off. If the coasties do a safety check, and find a sober, capable sailor at the helm, operating the boat safely, and a drunk down below in a berth, they aren't likely to arrest anyone, unless the drunk decides he wants to get loud and argumentative with the nice officers.

I prefaced my previous post by saying I'm not a maritime lawyer, but using common sense and good judgment can save you in most cases, if you exercise them.
 
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