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  #11  
Old 07-16-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
My guess is that you have pretty limited sailing experience, as Lasers only have one sail, and thus cannot sail 'wing on wing', and tacking downwind is really called 'gybing'. The Laser racers don't think 10 feet is too close, especially if the boats are on nearly parallel courses.
Might have been a Laser 2. Also, 10 feet isn't close if both boats are lasers, but if one has a prop, I think it's too close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
The reality is that you had the right of way because he was the overtaking vessel.
overtaking vessel only is give way if both are under sail. when one is a motor boat, the sailboat has row

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
Both the rules of the road and common courtesy would suggest that slowing down if necessary would be the best option when trying to share a narrow channel.
I agree!


Seem's like if he's within 20ft you might as well talk to him
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samw51 View Post

overtaking vessel only is give way if both are under sail. when one is a motor boat, the sailboat has row

Sorry, an overtaking sailboat does not have RoW over an overtaken powerboat:

Rule 13: Overtaking
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Overtaking vs. Crossing

Wouldn't that issue be defined by which sector the Laser was in...if in the forward 225 degree sector (forward to two points abath the beam on either side), it would be crossing. If in the aft 135 degree sector of your boat, he would be overtaking. If the Laser was near the limits of the 135 degree sector, he could still have a converging course that would intercept your boat on a collision course while he would still be the overtaking vessel. Is this not so?
Hypothetically speaking, yes.

But in this case we have the statement that the Laser was on a course that would enable it to cross ahead of or collide at the bow. In which case he'd certainly have a view of the bow lights and not merely the stern light, which is the general test for distinguishing which sector as between converging and overtaking.

In fact, if we were to switch this to a night time scenario (and if the Laser had running lights), it might be easier to answer the question. Focussing on the statement: "The respective courses were such that if he continued at present course and speed, he would intersect us at the bows or just miss us forward." It sounds to me like the Laser would have seen a white steaming light and a green bow light. Jkimberly initially would have seen a red bow light only, and eventually would have seen the white stern light. No?
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  #14  
Old 07-16-2009
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Actually, if I were in the situation as described by the OP, I would have just slowed significantly to let the Laser pass, without worrying too much about the rules. It was the safe thing to do and easy to do, and in my opinion, the sensible thing to do. Sometimes by fretting too much about the rules, we can create a dangerous situation, when it would have been easy to make a corrective/avoidance move before the issue of the rules even come into play. Additionally, I think whether overtaking or crossing, the OP was the give way vessel anyway.

Last edited by NCC320; 07-16-2009 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 07-16-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donradclife View Post
My guess is that you have pretty limited sailing experience, as Lasers only have one sail, and thus cannot sail 'wing on wing', and tacking downwind is really called 'gybing'. The Laser racers don't think 10 feet is too close, especially if the boats are on nearly parallel courses.

The reality is that you had the right of way because he was the overtaking vessel. You are not constrained by your draft, because you were in inland waters and were also not displaying the appropriate signal. You are probably not affected by the narrow channel rule, because you are less than 20 meters long.

The Laser avoided you, but if he had lost the wind and slowed down, the right of way would have shifted to him. You should also recognize his limitations--its hard for him to slow down, and he has only a limited space outside the channel before he has draft issues.

Both the rules of the road and common courtesy would suggest that slowing down if necessary would be the best option when trying to share a narrow channel.
I beg to differ with you. The Laser is the give way vessel until he is clear of your bow... In this case he is the overtaking vessel and required to keep clear until he has passed and is clear of your bow. and being a couple of feet pass you does not give him the right of way, because he isn't clear yet. And in narrow channels sailing vessel can not impede traffic. The only thing he would have right of way over is a commerical fishing vessel that is fishing, and can not impede any other vessel.
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  #16  
Old 07-16-2009
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RULE 13
OVERTAKING
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

I cannot agree with JRP that this could not have been an overtaking situation. I can imagine a situation wherein an overtaking boat could hit the overtaken boat in the bow. See (d) above.

JRP's comment "You were under power, he was under sail." is irrelevant. See (a) above - "...any vessel overtaking..." Emphasis added.

*His draft is not much less than yours,...". John, how much less does it have to be for the constrained by draft rule to come into play?

Don Radcliff, constrained by draft doesn't apply in inland waters?
RULE 3
GENERAL DEFINITIONS
For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter [Inld], except where the context otherwise requires:
((h) The term "vessel constrained by her draft" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

Don, what “appropriate signal”? I cannot find any requirement.

"You are probably not affected by the narrow channel rule, because you are less than 20 meters long." Don, sorry, but I don't find anything more than this:
RULE 9
NARROW CHANNELS
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

Don, are you really serious that the “loss of wind” would have any impact on which vessel is burdened and which is privileged?

“…and he has only a limited space outside the channel before he has draft issues.” How is that jk’s problem?

JRP – “In an overtaking scenario, the faster vessel clear astern will collide with the overtaken vessel at the stern if corrective action is not taken.” Is that definition in the regs somewhere?

John- “Both boats were arguably constrained by draft,…” How did you come to that conclusion? jk was in the channel, the other boat was outside the channel!

NCC320 nails it with “Overtaking vs. Crossing Wouldn't that issue be defined by which sector the Laser was in...” and “If the Laser was near the limits of the 135 degree sector, he could still have a converging course that would intercept your boat on a collision course while he would still be the overtaking vessel.” See 13 (d) above.

Samw51 – “overtaking vessel only is give way if both are under sail. when one is a motor boat, the sailboat has row”. See 13 (a) above.

PLEASE – PLEASE - PLEASE

Before some of you crucify me, I honestly believe jk took the proper course of action, following the prime directive: DON'T HIT OR BE HIT BY ANYONE!!!

That said, why do we bother with all of the other rules? If some hot shot (maybe he wasn't) racer pushes and us nice folks all just yield, doesn't it then come down to the skipper with the biggest balls (usually) prevails?

Isn't this similar to the leap-frogging driver who races ahead when he sees a lane closure coming up and then barges his way into the open lane?

Again, I think jk did the right thing, BUT I most fervently believe the skipper of the other boat should be reported to the authorities.

Paul
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  #17  
Old 07-16-2009
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The rules also state you do not cross the channel in front of a vessel that ascending or decending that channel... So the sail boat can't be tacking across the channel in front of traffic.

This a case where a digital camera use in showing the fool violating the rules besure to get the boat's name & Number and a nice pic of the person operating that boat.
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  #18  
Old 07-16-2009
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IMHO, close quarters is no time to be deep in an analysis of the RotR. When in doubt, slow down (or stop). At least that way if you hit him or he hits you the damange will be less. (It's called being "in extremis".) At a range of ten feet, methinks a very brief chat re the next action of each boat might also be appropriate.

Can't you see his lawyer in court saying: "My client was going to safely pass head of the defendant's boat, but the defendant actually stopped his boat and my client was thus in a situation where he had no choice but to hit him".

Last edited by billyruffn; 07-16-2009 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 07-16-2009
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His lawyer would be laughed out of the court for claiming that when it is a narrow channel. You do NOT cross the channel when there is ascending and descending traffic. This especially applies to a sail boat.
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  #20  
Old 07-16-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boasun View Post
The rules also state you do not cross the channel in front of a vessel that ascending or decending that channel... So the sail boat can't be tacking across the channel in front of traffic.
Boats...
Reference, please.
Thanks,
Paul
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