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  #31  
Old 07-17-2009
sv Mary T Pearson P35
 
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Sort of like waving another driver thru a 4 way stop even though you were there first.[/QUOTE]


Now, this would be novel, except in Seattle !
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkimberly View Post
What constitutes "over-taken vessel" then? As he was coming up behind us, basically paralleling our course until he was right next to us at which point it appeared he would converge. This is/was not a case of someone on a radically different course converging on us - he was immediately behind in a parallel course until alongside.

john
Ahhh. That is very different and contradictory information to what you initially said. In your initial post (below, emphasis added) there is not one mention of parallel courses or of the Laser passing you from astern. As Boasun said, we'll have to turn this one over to the admiralty barristers to sort out the conflicting testimony.

But your question really was "how do the other sailors handle a situation similar to this?" I think you've heard enough responses now indicating that most sailors would throttle back and give the little engineless sailboat plenty of room to make its way up the channel under sail. About -500 RPMs ought to do it in a case like this.


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Originally Posted by jkimberly View Post
I didn't want to hijack the thread "Stand On Boat, was I right and a jerk" so I started a new thread. That being said . . .

Last weekend the admiral and I were coming back after a long downwind slog from Port Jeff into Milford harbor. We were motoring down the channel into the harbor at pretty close to low tide. Depth in the channel at low tide is about 7-9ft and much less than that to either side - we draw 4ft of water.

There's all sorts of traffic coming into and out of the harbor, two sailboats behind us and a small powerboat in front and a parade of power and sailboats heading out. Everyone is under power. The channel is only about 50ft wide (at best).

So much for the background info . . .

The YC Lasers were ending one of their races and most of the pack was a few minutes behind us but one was overtaking us from the Starboard side. They have no motors. The admiral was getting mighty nervous as this particular Laser was spitting distance from our Starboard side running wing & wing, passing us - he was just outside the edge of the channel. The respective courses were such that if he continued at present course and speed, he would intersect us at the bows or just miss us forward.

I was in a quandry because as the overtaken boat, we were stand on, we were in a channel and therefore constrained by draft but we were under power. There wasn't a whole lot of room to move over either as a fairly large powerboat coming out was almost upon us. I figured I would "stand on" as long as it was safe to do so but would throttle down (we were doing the 5mph which is top end for us) when it appeared a collision was imminent. At just the last minute before hitting the throttle (he was less than 10' away), he tacked away from us going from wing/wing to port tack, held this for a minute or so, tacked again to Starboard tack and pulled in front of us in the channel with enough distance to be safe(? - 20') then immediately tacked to port. By this time he was well clear of us but for a bit there it was pretty nerve wracking.

So my question . . . how do the other sailors handle a situation similar to this? I think I did OK and was prepared to shutdown/reverse, etc. to avoid a collision and I know that was the correct thing to do but it DID seem as though the other guy should have known better. I had the distinct immpression he felt he had the right of way as he was under sail. Not the first time I've noticed that these Laser sailors from MYC act either entitled or are willing to get REALLY close to other boats.

jk
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  #33  
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quite new to sailing, but as I understood the original post I took him as the stand on vessel also and the racer as the give way. Overtaking is overtaking. If a vessel is coming up from behind and steers to port or starboard to pass once along side he is still the overtaking vessel until he actually over takes. I was sailing last weekend on a starboard tack when another boat was overtaking me and passed on my starboard side. We were both on a starboard tack, but because my boat points a bit better than his we were destined to collide if we both held our positions. I decided to bear off then tack and came around his stern then to his starboard side. I was the stand on, but I did what I needed to do to avoid the situation.
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
Ahhh. That is very different and contradictory information to what you initially said. In your initial post (below, emphasis added) there is not one mention of parallel courses or of the Laser passing you from astern. As Boasun said, we'll have to turn this one over to the admiralty barristers to sort out the conflicting testimony.

But your question really was "how do the other sailors handle a situation similar to this?" I think you've heard enough responses now indicating that most sailors would throttle back and give the little engineless sailboat plenty of room to make its way up the channel under sail. About -500 RPMs ought to do it in a case like this.


Lot's of good feedback on the subject so I'm glad I posted.

JohnR - What I probably should have tried to do was post a drawing of the situation to help illustrate it. When I said "The YC Lasers were ending one of their races and most of the pack was a few minutes behind us but one was overtaking us from the Starboard side. They have no motors. The admiral was getting mighty nervous as this particular Laser was spitting distance from our Starboard side running wing & wing, passing us - he was just outside the edge of the channel. The respective courses were such that if he continued at present course and speed, he would intersect us at the bows or just miss us forward The key points of this were that he was overtaking us from (along) the Starboard side. We were in a marked channel where everyone has to funnel down from all points to a single bearing. Overtaking us from the starboard side probably should have been worded as "overtaking us ALONG the starboard side. My bad, sorry.

Interesting to note, as well, that everyone has a slightly different interpretation of the ROR - this is basically what I was after and it's proved out time after time on the water (the differences, that is). The only thing everyone seems to agree to is that having a colision is BAD and is to be avoided.

Now, as a continuance of the topic - what would you have done if you found yourself in the middle of the 'flock' of racers, all headed into the channel at the same time. We're talking at least 25 small, non-powered sailboats entering the marked channel (description of which is at the start of this thread) in the situation described? Remember that the channel is narrow, not deep enough for you to leave and is already heavily populated with traffic in both directions. All of the racers are overtaking you under sail and are "all over the place" within the confines of the channel.

jk
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  #35  
Old 07-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkimberly View Post
...

Now, as a continuance of the topic - what would you have done if you found yourself in the middle of the 'flock' of racers, all headed into the channel at the same time. We're talking at least 25 small, non-powered sailboats entering the marked channel (description of which is at the start of this thread) in the situation described? Remember that the channel is narrow, not deep enough for you to leave and is already heavily populated with traffic in both directions. All of the racers are overtaking you under sail and are "all over the place" within the confines of the channel.

jk
What I do in similar circumstances is throttle all the way back and let the dinghy fleet pass ahead. Or if they are ghosting along in light air, we'll slow down and gingerly pick our way through -- with hand ready on the throttle, always yielding when there's a conflict. Communication is key -- hail them and ask how they would prefer to cross you (i.e. ahead or astern). As others have pointed out, these are fairly nimble boats and they are often used to close quarters maneuvering.

This is actually a pretty common scenario in many harbors and channels up and down the coasts, especially during summer when the sailing camps are in progress. It's a good opportunity to show the youngsters and dinghy sailors that the big-boat sailors understand and respect the challenge of bringing a boat up a narrow channel under sail power alone. In contrast with some of the motor boaters.
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2009
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I don't have enough time today to read all this, but my club's beside the most crowded "restricted channel" on the lake, and I think "rules be damned, I'll slow down a bit to make space", but I would not change course one degree. A sailboater actively sailing (no choice due to the absence of an engine in this otherwise sail-unfriendly stretch, I assume) is going to keep clear of a motoring boat, sail or power, and will do this more effectively if the motoring boat pulls "no sudden moves". Ten feet to me is actually a fair bit of room, compared to some of the start line close shaves I've seen.

I will politely yell "please hold your course" when I am sailing through a race fleet if I see a gap (and I'm a pretty good judge of relative gaps in fleets, having raced for a few years), but only if under the Rules I have right of way. Sometimes I'll yell "starboard!" because it seems odd but true that the crew of quarter-tonners can't always see me barrelling down on them, despite the relative mass and dimensional difference.

Racers would prefer that you, "the civilian", don't cross their course, of course, but this is neither necessary nor essential. I don't sail near their marks, but I will sail through their fleet, without stealing a breath of wind or necessitating an inch of helm change.

The same thing applies elsewhere. If I'm motoring, even down the equivalent of shallow ditch, I can stop and start in a straight line at will. A sailboat usually can't. Therefore, I hold course and lessen speed, because I want them to have all the air they need to get away from my bow.
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  #37  
Old 02-02-2011
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If he was approaching for more than 2 points abaft the beam - that is if was coming from an angle where he couldn't see your side light if it was lit - then he was overtaking, and was the give way vessel. No course changes would alter this situation until he was past and clear of you. In other words, he can't decide to be an overtaking vessel one minute and a crossing vessel the next. Sail vs. Power doesn't come into play here at all. And a previous response was correct, even if you were the stand on vessel, you'd still have some answering to do in the event of a collision. they'd pull the safe speed rule on you. Each vessel shall be operated at a safe speed at all times. the age old test of whether that rule was followed is generally if you hit something, you weren't going at a safe speed.
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  #38  
Old 02-03-2011
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Paul and Pollard are correct given the limited facts presented.
However no mention was made of current direction! That's very important.
Now I offer this with utmost respect, and please take my constructive criticism in the spirit in which it is offered.
Say there was a collision and fatality.
Now, assuming that you were motoring against the current you would still be partially at fault because:
Failed to give the 5 blast danger signal,
and
Failed to throttle back immediately after sensing danger.
However the Laser pilot would bear most of the blame.

Dick
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  #39  
Old 02-03-2011
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To my knowlege, By the Rules, current is only a factor upon Western Rivers. Everywhere else it is generally considered courtesy to give way to a vessel moving with the current.

I read this from the start as an overtaking situation, and thought that the OP handled it well. He was the stand on vessel...but.... It's no big deal to slow down and let the sailboat or the whole fleet pass, unless you felt by doing so you would lose steerage. If you are concerned that a danger exists, it's best to sound the Danger signal.
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  #40  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
To my knowlege, By the Rules, current is only a factor upon Western Rivers. Everywhere else it is generally considered courtesy to give way to a vessel moving with the current.
Sorry, not true.
See Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road Chapter 8:Inland Rules, "Encounters in Restricted Waters" It's very emphatic on this point.

Respectfully,

Dick
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