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  #101  
Old 12-06-2010
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You want some salt? Below is a thread that I think is one of the best representations of what SN is all about...great sailors, great/kind people, and some of the best insight you can possibly get about sailing.

The inimitable salt, billyruffin, started off the thread on the Rule62 disaster - and after a respectful period of time, those great sailors started talking about the issues.

It doesn't get better than this:

Sinking of Rule 62
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  #102  
Old 12-09-2010
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[Irony alert.]

Wow, I ran across this great thread on another forum regarding boat inspections! The member appears to have been banned from that forum...but it's still great info:

Boat Inspection Trip Tips - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers
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  #103  
Old 12-09-2010
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sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Yes, that thread/post is also available on four other sailing forums, including SAILNET. I'd point out that while I may be banned at StuffIminto, the reasons for my banning had more to do with the site administrator being a lying sack of sh!t and violating his own terms of service than anything else. For the full story and in terms of full disclosure, you should have also posted links to what really happened, as you can read HERE, HERE and HERE.

I also requested all of my posts and my account be deleted from Stuffiminto, but apparently those wishes weren't honored, since a lot of Stuffers good content was posted by now-banned sailors, including myself, Giulietta, and a couple of dozen other sailnet and anything-sailing members.

As usual, you're stirring up sh!t without being honest or even-handed about it... you're basically a jack@ss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
[Irony alert.]

Wow, I ran across this great thread on another forum regarding boat inspections! The member appears to have been banned from that forum...but it's still great info:

Boat Inspection Trip Tips - Boating, Sailing and Cruising Forum: For Cruisers - BY Cruisers
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
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.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 12-09-2010 at 08:13 PM.
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  #104  
Old 12-09-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Yes, that thread/post is also available on four other sailing forums, including SAILNET. I'd point out that while I may be banned at StuffIminto, the reasons for my banning had more to do with the site administrator being a lying sack of sh!t and violating his own terms of service than anything else. For the full story and in terms of full disclosure, you should have also posted links to what really happened, as you can read HERE, HERE and HERE.

I also requested all of my posts and my account be deleted from Stuffiminto, but apparently those wishes weren't honored, since a lot of Stuffers good content was posted by now-banned sailors, including myself, Giulietta, and a couple of dozen other sailnet and anything-sailing members.

As usual, you're stirring up sh!t without being honest or even-handed about it... you're basically a jack@ss.


Oh c'mon. You have to admit it was kind of funny.

Anyway, it is great info. I'm going to use it on my next purchase. Seriously.

As a matter of fact, I've already purchased my Phenolic Resin Hammer and have been practicing at "Chuck E Cheese":



Dog, I love ya dude. Just goofin' with you. And we all get banned at some point. So don't sweat it.

Anyway I'm honored that you keep such a sharp eye on my Salt's thread. It does have some of the best sailing info on the web.

(PS - Your post actually came up in a Google search I was doing: "boat inspection tips". I had no idea it was over there.)
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-09-2010 at 08:44 PM.
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  #105  
Old 12-10-2010
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LOL the Dog is how I found Sailnet
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  #106  
Old 12-16-2010
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From the Rule 62 thread I mentioned above. btrayfors gave a great summary of what you need to do for off-shoring...


Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
On a moderately long offshore passage -- 10 days or so for the Carib 1500 -- it's a very good idea to PLAN for seasickness and fatigue, as well as breakdowns and bad weather.

1. No 10-day weather forecast is reliable.

2. Sh.. happens -- Murphy lurks on the offshore vessel, and begins planning his mischief the minute you drop the docklines.

3. Seasickness is both predictable and treatable/preventable...much of the time. If you're prone to seasickness, you need to have a proven strategy for combatting it. I once lay in the scuppers for most of 3 days on a passage from Gibraltar to the Canaries. Researched it. Tried remedies. Found that scopalamine in the form of Transcop behind-the-ear patches works well for me (not for everyone).

4. I very often singlehand my 42' sloop. On rivers, on the Chesapeake, in bays (like Penobscot Bay in Maine), etc.. No problem. However, on longer than overnite passages I want a minimum of 3 experienced crew. Four or five is better. Why? Because FATIGUE is your worst enemy.

5. I always do pre-passage planning, including waypoints, charts, information about harbors along the way, etc., etc. To leave without this basic workup is, IMHO, very shortsighted.

6. No experienced skipper, however experienced and however equipped, would attempt to enter an unfamiliar ocean inlet in bad weather conditions, especially at night and after days of bad weather. NO SEASICK CAPTAIN WOULD ATTEMPT THIS...IF HE/SHE HAD ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERIENCE WITH SUCH INLETS. Seasickness -- no matter how severe (and I've been there several times) does not mean you take leave of your senses.

7. IMHO, the captain of a yacht is responsible for the boat and his/her crew. That is a responsibility and a duty each yacht captain should recognize and consciously agree to shoulder. If he/she can't, they shouldn't be captaining a boat, whether a dingy or a megayacht. No excuses. No "contributing factors". No spinning. The captain is responsible. Period.

Bill
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  #107  
Old 12-16-2010
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Good post steal Smack fits exellently here ..... got to agree seasickness has got to be the bane of sailing .
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  #108  
Old 12-16-2010
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smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
I only steal the best. Saves us all from having to dig to hell and back to find some of the best sailing answers on the web.
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  #109  
Old 12-17-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I only steal the best. Saves us all from having to dig to hell and back to find some of the best sailing answers on the web.
Hiya SFC.

I dont think there are 'answers'. Nothing beats years [naut miles]under the belt and you make a decision as you see it.
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  #110  
Old 12-18-2010
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The Rule 62 thread just keeps cranking out the jewels. This one from Jeff? Wow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Wearing a different hat than as a SailNet member, I would also like to touch on the content of this discussion a little. As we sit here thinking about this tragedy it may seem easy to assign fault. Those with experience with Atlantic Inlets understand the full implication of an onshore breeze and an outgoing current. For them it is easy in the abstract to point fingers at the skipper and say he should have known better.

He probably should have, he even may have. But not being aboard, and not knowing the circumstances, and feeling in my heart that terrible self-inflicted sense of loss, pain, and guilt that I can only imagine that the skipper must feel having had one crew lost and several nearly lost, I am not comfortable being pointedly critical of the man in a public forum such as this.

Any of us who have spent a lot of time on boats know that no matter how experienced we each are, we will at some point have a lapse in judgement that will place us, and our vessel in serious harm's way. With experience, we might have the sense to avoid danger and have fewer lapses, and might have the toolset to take a potentially dangerous mistake and make it less dangerous. We might survive by skill or luck and hopefully look back and learn. It is a matter of being human.

As my good friend Jon Eisberg, (a person who has more sea miles than anyone that I personally know) and I have discussed at length, the idea that when we were learning to sail, it was assumed that new sailors would do an apprenticeship of sorts; some mix of perhaps taking classes, doing reading, sailing lots of hours in increasingly more complex sailing conditions, and sailing with more experienced sailors. And out of that, you learned and became increasingly competent.

As I have said here many times, these days there are a lot of people coming into the sport, who are in a headlong rush to go "Out There", and yet eschew the concept of making a remotely diligent effort to become broadly knowledgable sailors before setting forth in harms way. If they are lucky, they will survive long enough to learn to be good sailors, or they will lose interest before harming themselves or other.

This is an important lesson to impart, but it may not be the lesson to be learned here, since I do not think that we know how experienced this skipper was.

There is a tendancy for boats to become increasingly complex, carrying equipment that makes the near-imposible, doable. And we as modern sailors have become increasingly dependent on these tools. I think that it is a valid point that it is easy to develop a kind of electronic-mechanically induced hubris. Growing up sailing before any of these convenmiences, and sailing boats which are still pretty primatively equipped, I have increasingly observed in myself how easy it is to do something daring, perhaps boarding on stupid, out of this sense of over-confidence and over reliance on these gifts of progress. It happens to all of us.

It is a good lesson to bear in mind. And it may be exactly what happened in this case, but again the lesson of not being over dependent on modern equipment may not be the lesson to be learned here, since I do not know whether over-dependence on electronics was a factor in this case.

But then again, this may simply have been a lapse in judgement, a seriously tragic one, but one just the same. As I said before, if you sail long enough, you will make a serious and near life threatening mistake. I apologize to Jon Eisberg who has heard this story that I repeat here.

Many years ago I was asked by a friend to deliver an old wooden boat from Savannah to St. Augustine. This was in the days before electronic navigation as we know it today, and before small boats carried as we called then "ship to shore" radios. GPS, Loran, and VHF radios did not exist yet, compact radar units were unavailable. Electronic instruments were still primative and considered exotic. Slab reefing and roller furling were still pretty rare and exotic. This was before satillite weather, or computer crunched weather predictions, and so weather windows were not something that was seen as being predictable.

But, the weather service was predicting a warm snap and 10- 15 knot northerlies, and so we figured that we would be broad-reaching the whole way and would probably cover the 170 miles or so in something less than two days. We figured wrong.

We had a lovely beam reach out the river but almost immediately the sky clouded over and the wind swung to the west and before we knew it we were beating out into the Atlantic in big seas and high winds. (Being a time before electronic wind instruments, I could only guess that we were in 20 knot winds gusting somewhere around 30 knots at time, but 30 something years later its hard to say.)

And it was cold and it was wet. These were the days when thermal underwear was cotton and foul weather gear leaked and did not breath and pretty soon we were all soaked to the skin, rash covered and borderline hypothermic. There was not a dry spot or dry piece of clothes on the boat. We were all experiencing bouts of seasickness. At one point I spent an absurd number of hours steering trying to control my seasickness. We were all probably dehydrated as well.

But we were out there, and out there for days. In that era, the only forms of navigation were either dead reckoning, celestial, and if you were close to shore, you could use a radio direction finder. It had been cloudy for three days straight and so sun or star sites were out, and as sick as we all were, I am not sure that the skipper could have crunched the numbers (in the days before electronic calculators). We had our DR, but we had very little confidence in it since we had crossed the Gulf Stream a few times, and were not sure how much of the night was spent in the Gulf Stream.

In any event after over three days at sea we arrived at St. Augustine at dusk. And there the helmsman picked up what he assumed was the seabuoy and started in. As we approached the buoy we were surrounded by breakers. We quickly realized that we were approaching the middle of the chanel where there were spoils but before we could do anything we took to bottom.

That boat had a harsh weather helm and so we used a 'Manila Mike' (a line lead from the tiller to the windward winch) to take the stain off the helmsman, and when we took to bottom the rudder hit and the tiller split. Now we had this short sharpiedged tiller whipping back and forth across the cockpit, threatening to amputate anything that got in the way. We lasso'd the end of the tiller stump and lashed a 2x4 to the stub and beat back out to sea.

Of course we were leaking badly, and had taken green water down the companionway and so now we were bailing for all we were worth with an ancient navy pump and eventually with a bucket. As night fell, we picked up the seabuoy again, and although we believed running the channel in the dark was nuts, we ran it just the same. Running that channel was one of the scariest things I have ever done. Under the conditions, it was dead wrong. It was dangerous and stupid, and we knew it. But we were considered staying at sea more dangerous so in we came. It was a lapse in judgement of grand proportions. We lucked out and made it in. Had we not, and had it been today, I am sure it would have been easy to critique this boneheaded move on a thousand levels. But it made sense at the time. And somehow when all hell breaks loose, you have to make a decision, and hope its the right one. It might mean being tied up in St. Augustine harbor, eating in a nice restaurant, and sleeping like a baby wet clothes and all. Or it might mean perishing in an Atlantic Inlet. Sitting here, I cannpt point my finger at anyone who honestly made their best call and got it worng.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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