The Salt's Corner Table - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 08-24-2009
T37Chef's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,298
Thanks: 71
Thanked 36 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 9
T37Chef will become famous soon enough
Why a corner table and not a bar?
__________________
Cheers,
Shawn & the crew of S/V Windgeist

1982 Tartan 37 CB - Hull #358


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 08-24-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Dude - you're a chef. Do the math. Heh-heh.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 08-24-2009
painkiller's Avatar
Apropos of Nothing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,740
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
painkiller will become famous soon enough
Actually, Chef has a point. A nice leather banquette would be apropos.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 08-24-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Undine is on a distinguished road
Smacky wants a corner table so he can keep his back to the wall.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 08-25-2009
timebandit's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 928
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
timebandit is on a distinguished road
Rule #1

THE LAST THING YOU MUCKED WITH IS THE FIRST THING TO SCREW UP!

Rule #2

NOT ALL NEW THINGS WORK!
__________________
Rick
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Mac 25
Copernicus
Southern California
I am not a prejudice racist sexist bigot. I just hate stupid people.

Last edited by timebandit; 08-25-2009 at 02:15 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 08-25-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
More about coastal versus off-shore from Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think that too much is made of these terms offshore or coastal cruisers. While there can be major distictions between how a specific boat is intended to be used, when you talk about extended cruising in areas that are somewhat breezy in nature, then you are better off in a boat that has certain kinds of attributes, (such as robust construction, good deck hardware, good sails and reefing gear, seaberths, plenty of storage and tankage, small but operable portlights, and a comparatively small cockpit with large drains.)

If you are an experienced sailor with good boat repairing skills, you can by with a boat that compromises on some of these characteristics and can upgrade the boat to over come any serious deficiencies.

When you talk about the Carribean you are talking about a large region with a wide varieties of sailing conditions. Areas like the Vigin Islands offer a wide range of marine services within a day or so sail of anywhere. The conditions are quite breezy but rarely more than manageable and when things get dicey there are plenty of places to duck in and wait things out. Other areas of the Carribean you are several days away from safe ports of refuge and conditions can be less predictable.

People have cruised these areas in allkinds of boats. It can be done with some skill and some luck. That said, this all comes down to risk management. How much are you willing to risk? If you end up buying an unsuitable boat, the chances are greater that something catastrophic will happen. You are clearly on a tight budget. That catastrophy may not be that you sink your boat or loose your rig. It may simply be that you loose some part of the boat that you cannot fix with spares onboard in some remote corner of the world and cannot affort to buy the part and have it shipped to where you are and are forced to leave your boat in a hurricane zone and return to the States to refresh the kitty. While this can happen on any boat, it is less like to happen on a more robustly constructed boat and one designed for the kind of proplonged exposure to the kind of conditions encountered in these breezier corners of the world.

Given your budget, probably the best way to go may be to buy an older, tougher boat from the 1960''s or early 1970''s that someone has spent time restoring, and then spend some more time going over the boat and carefully upgrading those few items that might have been missed by the previous owner.

Jeff
Theh this question and follow-up:
"I was wondering if you could recommend some shoal draft or center board or swing keel boats that you''d consider well enough built to handle that trip around the Carribean. I do have a budget of under 20-25,000 so I had been looking at production boats such as the O day''s and such. What models in the 29-31 foot range can you recommend? I know older boats were built heavier but does that also mean that its still stronger considering age and the pounding that its taken? I hear some folks here talk about how a production boat made in the 80''s doesn''t need to be as heavy as it is better enginered. I am unsure of which direction to head toward.??????"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think there are a lot of good boats in the 20 to 25K range. I agree that many of the early fiberglass boats were quite heavy without being especially sturdy. The 1970''s was in some ways the sorst period because boats were getting lighter but engineering had not improved. By the 1980''s there was a better materials and methods as well as a better understanding of designing fiberglass structures.


Probably my favorite is the Tartan 30 from the 1970''s. These are nicely designed and reasonably constructed boats. I have posted this list before but here is my list of favorites under 25 K.

-Albin Ballad (30 feet (1973-1978) $12-20K)
These are reasonably fast and very well built and finished boats. They are not especially roomy but are good boats for short handing. They are beautiful looking boats. Most have a Volvo 10 hp diesel.

Albin Cumulus (28 feet-(early 1980''s) $15-18K)
These fractional rigged sloops would be a ideal first boat. They are reasonably fast and easy to handle. They are nicely finished and typically have diesels. The interiors on these boats are not exactly plush but is reasonable.

Alberg 30: slow, wet but rugged and cheap to buy.
Beneteau First 30 or 30E (30 feet (early 1980''s) $18-22K)
Fairly modern design that should sail reasonably well. Not the most solid boats but fine for Florida and the Bahamas. They had diesels and pretty good hardware. The 30E might be a fractional rig, I don''t recall.

-C&C Corvette (31 feet (1967- 1970) $15-22K) and -C&C Redwing (30 footer ( 1965-1970) $12K- 20K)
Attractive and reasonably venerable designs; they are not especially fast but OK for the era. The Corvettes are moderately long keel/ centerboard boats and so are great for poking around the shallower areas of the Bay. The Redwings are fin keel/spade rudder boats and in many ways are less suitable for what you want to so than the Corvette.

Cal 2-30 and Cal 2-29''s (just under 30 feet (mid 1960-early 1970''s) $10-18K)
These are reasonably built racer cruisers that have reasonable accommodations and pretty fair sailing ability. Like the Cal 25, the design is a dated and if the gear has not been updated will be less convenient than a more modern design But these boats have gone a lot of places.


Dehler 31 (31 feet (Mid to late 1980''s) under $20K to mid-20K range)
These are really neat little boats. They are reasonably fast and look easy to sail and single-hand. They are fractional rigged and have a very nice interior plan. They would one of my favorites on this list.

Dufour 2800 (28 feet (mid 1980''s) mid $20K)
These are OK boats with a big following. They are not my favorite but they would not be a bad boat if the price were right.

Irwin Competition 30 (30 feet(mid 1970''s) $12-16K)
These were well rounded little boats that sailed well and had reasonably nice interiors. There was one that dominated its class in PHRF for years. Irwin''s were not the most solidly built boats and so you are looking for a well maintained example in reasonably good shape. You may have some serious beefing up to do if you plan to do the Carribean.

MG27 (27 foot (Mid 1980''s) under $20K)
Nice little fractional rigged English boats. They seem to be well mannered and have an interior layout similar to my now sold Laser 28. They have a diesel aux. But tiny tanks that will need to get upgraded.

1970''s vintage Tartan 30''s, (30 feet( 1970''s) under $20K)
These are my favorite masthead sloops of that era. They are good all around boats. Most still atomic 4''s but you can find them with diesels.

Late 70''s/ early 80''s Hunter 30''s, (30feet (15-20K)
These are very under appreciated boats. We have had two in my family and again it is a matter of finding one that has been upgraded and is in good clean shape. My Dad raced his in PHRF and went for a couple years without finishing lower than a first or second. They are roomy and surprisingly fast.

70''s vintage Pearson 30''s (Not Flyers)
These are very venerable racer/cruisers. Of course they come in all kinds of condition from really well maintained and up graded with good racing hardware and a diesel engine to stripped and trashed. You can buy them from under $10K (but you would not want any in that price range) to something approaching $20K. You should find good boats in the high teens.

Pearson Vanguard, Triton, Wanderer and Coaster: Pretty classic old boats from the 1960''s. They were simple, heavily built and pretty cheap to buy. They are a mixed bag in that their original hardware is bound to be dated and pretty worn out. They are slow, wet and don''t have the most comfortable motions in a chop, but lots of these boats have gone to far away places. Again you really want one that has been maintained and upgraded.
Ranger 29 (29 (early 1970''s) 10-18K)
These are good sailing and nice cruising little boats. They were not the best built boats and so you should be looking for a clean and updated version. Still they offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Wylie 28 and Wylie 30 (28 and 30 respectively(late 1970''s to early 1980''s) 10-15K) These are neat little boats that sail well and are really pretty interesting. The few that I have seen have good hardware and have had simple but workable interiors. They came in fractional and masthead rig versions. There was a masthead version that did quite well on the Bay.

Jeff
Then this question and follow-up:

I am trying to get the handle on what I should look for, model, weight, price, year, or what? Can anyone shine a light on my questions? You mentioned that in the 80''s the boats were better made but lighter... can you explain that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
This is a very long one.

1) "Isn''t heavier and thicker always better?"

Yes and no....There are a lot of factors that add to the weight of a boat beyond its hull. Earlier boats were heavier for a lot of reasons beyond simply having thick hulls. Simply focusing on the hull for a moment. There are really several things that determine the strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel (by ''panel'' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures) itself, the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures.

On its own, Fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness and it is very dense. If you simply try to create stiffness in fiberglass it takes a lot of thickness. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were comparably flexible. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios)

Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve.

So back to your original question, all other things being equal a thicker panel should have more stiffness but typically these early thickened panels were just not that stiff and as a result they are prone to losing more strength over time.


2) Were those boats not made of the same polyester resin (and fiberglass) used in today''s boats?

Not Really. While the basic chemistry is the same, there is a lot that makes up polyester resin. Prior to the fuel crisis in the 1970''s polyester formulations were different and were comparatively brittle (but resistant to blisters). As a result of the fuel crisis, the resin formulations used in marine applications were altered, and they were altered again in the early 1980''s as a result of the acute blister problems caused by the 1970''s reformulation.

Beyond that, there is the way that resins were handled. In the 1960''s mixing proportioning, temperature control and even apply resins was pretty haphazard. Various additives were pretty casually added to the resins, such as extenders, bulking agents and accelerators. Each of these offered some cost advantage, but did nothing for strength.

Probably the worst offenders were accelerators, which increases the brittleness of the resin and weakens it over time. The idea behind accelerators is that tooling for boats (moulds) are expensive. The quicker you can pop out a hull the more frequently you can use a mold. In the 1960''s fiberglass normally took a period weeks to reach a state of cure (i.e. reach something approaching full strength) that it was acceptable to remove the hull and not risk distortion. If you simply over catalyze the resin it will cure more quickly but it will also go off too quickly to have a useful pot life. So in the 1960s accelerators were used to allow a reasonable pot life but speed up the cure time.

The other component in the laminate is the actual reinforcing fabrics. In its infancy, fiberglass fibers were quite short, brittle and needed to be handled very carefully to avoid damage to the individual fibers. In production facilities in the 1960''s this was simply not well known and so fabrics were cut and folded into tight little bundles. In a plant you would see small stacks of these tightly folded and carefully labeled fiberglass fabric bundles around the perimeter of a boat being laminated.

Then there was the cloths themselves. Woven fiberglass is comparatively stretchy and weak because in the weaving process the geometry results in fibers that are folded over each other and need to elongate in order to really absorb a big load. Fiberglass fabrics also take the greatest stress in the direction that the fibers are oriented. In the 1960''s there was no effort to minimize the use of materials that reduced the strength of the fiberglass fibers because of the way that the fabric was woven and there was little or no effort to orient the fibers to the direction of maximum stress.

Then there is the ratio of fiberglass and resin. Except in compression, resin is a very weak material. Resin is very poor in tension, can''t stand elongation and is not too good in sheer. Resin is only there to glue the fibers together and to keep the fibers in column so that the laminate does not fail. The ideal fiberglass resin has no more resin than is absolutely necessary to hold the fibers together and not a tiny bit more.

This was known in the early days of fiberglass boats but resin and labor was cheap so it was easier to just pour a little more in and avoid dry spots. When I have cored older boats I have generally been amazed how much resin compared to cloth I have found, certainly compared to later boats.

Lastly, comes the controversial issue of coring. Solid glass is heavy. No two ways about it. So it is hard to achieve much bending strength or stiffness without incurring a major weight problem in a comparably small boat. (It is the same problem with steel construction.) If you try to keep weight down you end up with a boat that flexes a lot and flexing causes fatigue that greatly weakens the laminate.

And before you say, "So just build it heavier". (As I am sure a lot of people are tired of hearing me say) Weight does nothing good for a boat. In and of itself it does not add strength or room, or comfortable motion, but it sure adds additional stresses to every working part of the boat, and it certainly slows a boat down.

Coring allows the depth of the section to increase and significantly strengthens and stiffens the section, reducing flexing and fatigue. While the outer skin is thinner and easier to pierce than a thicker uncored hull, the combination of outer skin, and core work together where the core acts as a crush zone absorbing energy and distributing it to a wider area. Even with the outer skin breached there is a relatively high likelihood that the inner skin will be intact and after the thicker laminate of the same weight has been broached. Where coring does not do as well in is situations where the boat is subject to long term abrasion and in situations where a boat spends a lot of time bouncing off a dock.


3. What things do I look for as far as strength?

Up to now we have focused on the strength of the fiberglass materials themselves. But boats behave as a system. As I said early on there are a number of factors that determine the actual strength of the boat. We''ve discussed the strength of the hull panel itself but in many ways its the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures that really determine more about the strength of the boat.

You generally just don''t hear of sail boats that are sailing along and a section of hull falls apart. What you do hear about are hardspot failures, hull/ deck joint failures and failures of the framing systems.

Framing systems are a key part of the strength of a boat. A section of fiberglass laminate that might be extremely strong and stiff when spanning say 12 to 16 inches is really in trouble when trying to span 24 to 30 inches. One of the key elements in evaluating how strong a boat is the frequency of framing. Bulkheads, bunk and shelf flats, engine beds, athwartship frames, and longitudinal stringers all reduce panel size and, in doing so, distribute loads and help limit the size of a tear in or flexure of the skin.

But the connection between the framing system and the skin is a really important component of the system as well. The joint between the skin and framing members (either tabbing or flanges) need to be wide enough to provide a good contact area for adhesion and to prevent a concentrated load on the skin where our old adversary ''Fatigue'' can go to town.

Beyond that the framing members themselves need to be sturdy enough to take the loads being superimposed on them. So to answer your question, if I walked on a boat that knew nothing about, the way I would judge the strength of the boat would be to look for small panel sizes, wide tabbing and structural flanges and framing that looks appropriately sized for the job.

I would also look at high stress areas. Hull/deck joints should have wide contact areas. Mast steps and rudderposts should have large longitudinal and athwartship, knees, frames or bulkheads. Keels should have closely spaced, well glassed-in, athwartship frames (called floor frames) that minimally start at the forward edge of the keel and stop one frame aft of the end of the keel. There should be well glassed in longitudinal (which is often formed by the face of the berths) that occurs over these athwartship frames and act to distribute loads and these should occur reasonably close to the centerline of the boat (within a few feet).

Rigging loads should be tied into longitudinal and athwartship frames, bulkheads or knees.

4. You mentioned that in the 80''s the boats were better made but lighter... can you explain that?

In the 1980''s, better boat builders began to use better resins and use them properly, handle fabrics better, and use fibers oriented to better stress mapping. Over resin rich laminates became rarer. Framing systems became more sophisticated. (The largest panel on my 1983 38 footer is about 14 by 22 inches. My 1960s era C&C 22 had panels 2 feet by 6 feet in size.)

5. I wonder why is it going beyond the design limits of a coastal cruiser to sail from Florida to the Bahamas? The same is true for most of the Caribbean? However, to make my point... wouldn''t almost any production boat 30-34 feet long be safe enough to make those trips?

This is about risk management. In good weather and with a little luck you''d be amazed how minimal a boat can make the kinds of passages that you are talking about. But if your luck runs out, and you get hammered, things happen. Boats will flex bulkheads and stringers loose. At which point, rigging loads are no longer acting on a glassed in bulkhead, which pries the deck up. Perhaps a portlight cracks from being torqued and pretty soon you have something that looks like a boat, but which no longer is a boat. (I have repaired a boat that just what I described happened to and it happened off of Ft. Lauderdale.)


6. I am trying to get the handle on what I should look for, model, weight, price, year, or what?

There is no simple answer here. The real answer (with all due respect) comes from experience. It comes from being able to get aboard a boat and look for those subtle clues that tell you how strong a particular boat is and how hard it has been used and how well it has been maintained. It comes from really researching a boat.

(In my own case. when I was narrowing my search for the boat that I recently bought, I talked via email to people in South Africa, the Caribbean and in New Zealand, who had sailed on sisterships in a wide range of conditions. I spoke to Bruce Farr''s office (the design firm). I spoke to people who had sailed on the boat years before. I went through the boat with a fine tooth comb and then had a surveyor do the same thing to keep me honest with myself. Only then was I ready to buy a boat in confidence that the boat would do what I needed it to.)

You have very ambitious goals and not much money. People have given you good advice but you want to understand why you were getting that advice. That''s good. But you have a long way to go (and I don''t mean that as a put down). My best recommendation is that you allow yourself the time to look at a lot of boats, talk to a lot of people, get out on the water when ever you can and you will be able sort all this out and learn as you go.

7. Can anyone shine a light on my questions?

Yes, You can! We''re here to help but this is your puzzle. Even if we could, and even if we did, give you all the answers, you couldn''t learn enough or enjoy the ride as much, if all you had to do was dial into a bulletin board and just like turning over a magic 8 ball, the exact right answer to your question came your way.

Hang in there!
Regards
Jeff
Epic stuff that!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 08-25-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
All about a compass - by a very cool dude...Omatako

Responding to a post by another salt - Valiente...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
I have a KMV AC105 fluxgate, a Raymarine chartplotter and a Ritchie Globemaster. Realistically, it is the fluxgate that is most accurate compass. I would consider a satellite compass for the reasons given above, and because I have a steel boat and it might be quite difficult to have the Ritchie "reswung" for the Southern Hemisphere. It's perfect at the moment in all directions (10.5 degree W variation), but I might not notice fluctuations in other parts of the world.

I freely admit a satellite compas is more than most need, as the error in a compass bearing over a short distance is rarely an issue. An error on a 1,000 mile passage can be dangerous, and more information is good.
He throws this down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
The variation is dictated by your geographical location and is accounted for when doing stuff like calculating CTS. Deviation is dependant on the magnetism built into the boat and doesn't change unless something in the boat changes. So a change in geographical location will not require the compass to be re-swung no matter which hemisphere you're in.

What can change from N to S is that the card in the compass has a tiny little weight on the underside that keeps the card level. When you change from one hemisphere to another, it is POSSIBLE that the card will lie at a strange angle brought about by large changes in magnetic variation from one hemisphere to another but the headings will not change in terms of deviation.

If the compass is a good quality one, then this problem shouldn't manifest itself (mine didn't from US to NZ). I had a bulkhead compass (Suunto, so not junk) years ago on which the card was at a daft angle and the compass repairers didn't want to try and fix it - don't know why. I eventually threw it out.

Oh and I know that the fluxgate in my autopilot can be calibrated to match the deviation in the steering compass. Don't know if your fluxgate can or not but worth bearing in mind in case someone has fiddled with it.
Omatako has tons of other stuff - so stay tuned.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 08-26-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
How do you prepare for heavy weather?

Another great post by Omatako:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
It is my considered opinion that nothing can prepare you for the first time you're in full charge of your own boat and you come up on deck in a shrieking 60 knot wind and see breaking 30 foot waves stretching from horizon to horizon.

Baptism by fire is the only way you'll experience this because no sucker is going to take you out in such conditions for a mentoring session and when you get into such conditions, you'll learn real fast the first time or you'll not get the opportunity again.

I had sailed for many years before I experienced the described conditions and when I did, it scared the cr@p out of me but I managed and I survived and next time I won't be as scared and I'll manage better. I sincerely hope the next time takes as long to come around as the first one did.

One absolute constant in ocean sailing - when you're out there, you deal with whatever gets chucked at you and interestingly, most of us survive. Learn whatever you can from the books that are available because it'll all help but the final lesson is a practicle one that can only be gained from your own experience.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 08-28-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
The costs of owning a boat...

Good info from CD..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I can understand why others here would warn you away from a Hinkley as a first boat. I will dissagree. If the boat touches you, go for it. They are well built and will hold their value well (as will the boats I mention). I just do not consider learning to sail to be that big of a deal. Motoring is the hard part, but you will figure it out. Gell coat is not that expensive to repair (I just got a bill for $350 last weekend and I have been boating for 15 years). Get the boat that touches you the first time and if you like the name and reputation of the Hinckley, go for it. You won't be ashamed of the boat and she will keep you safe as long as you don't do something stupid. Keep her at a good yard where you can either have your maintenace done or be supervised as you learn it yourself. Good yards/marinas are expensive so don't go cheap.

Sahara may be able to give you a better idea on costs of the Hinckley, but our costs at 40/42 feet run about $7,500 annually not counting any major purchases. When we move her to Florida, those costs will increase $5100 to about $12,600. If you are going to take out a loan, you will need to add that into the cost of the boat too. Our boat is new, though, so we may not have the maintenance issues you have. Our neighbors who have a Panda, Mason, and Taswell (and dad on his Tayana 42) do most of their own maintenance and varnish and I would suspect you might enjoy doing it too. I think those of you that own those types of boats would get some enjoyment from doing it.

And just one other point, my mom and dad, at 59 yo, bought their first boat in their lives: A Tanaya 42. Certainly that would not be considered the easiest boat to learn on either. But they love her and would not trade her for the world. I suspect if you get that Hinckley, you will feel the same. Just look at the other boats I will mention as they may touch you too. They are comparable in price and luxury.


Here are some of the boats we looked at that were sail boats and maybe similar to your boat at least in comfort and appeal:

The Mason 44.

1990 Mason Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Classy boat. I love them and always have. Lots of teak and very comfortable inside. They were made in Taiwan (Ta Shing IIRC), considered the best yard in Taiwan. PAE, who built/import these, also makes the Nordhavn which is argueably the worlds best trawler. These boats are top notch. I estimate you could get a late 1980's in the mid to low $200's.

Taswell 43

1989 Ta Shing Taswell Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I love these boats. They are very luxurious. They are very comfortable inside. They will take you anywhere. They are also built at Ta Shing. Super boat. These boats are custom so make sure you check access to systems to make sure that the owners did not do anything stupid. I have been on a 43 and a 49 and have been nothing but impressed. If I were to buy one, I would probably opt for the 49 as I like the space better, but the 43 is a great boat too. The 49 may be more than you want to spend, but I suspect the 43 to be comparable in price to a Hinckley.

I never checked out a Hinckley. I looked at them online and never could see it working for us. We have two boys and plan on cruising, so the layout and space below was imperative. It had nothing to do with the absolute quality and reputation of the boats. Of all things, we actually made offers on a Nordhavn and two Kadey-Krogens. I know this is Sailnet, but depending on what type of sailing and cruising experience you have and plan on doing, it may at least be worth considering. It doesn't cost to look (well, yes it does but the cost of flying around the country is half the fun).

Just a lot of random thoughts. Hope it helps. All the best,

- CD
Does anyone know of another good summation of ongoing costs for owning? This seems to be a frequent question.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 08-28-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,497
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
What kind of boat should I buy?

Another great one from davidpm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Welcome aboard Alan. I think I know exactly how you feel. I was in the same place 30 years ago and still remember the indecision and frustration.

You asked a lot of good questions in a forum filled with people with thousands of years total experience. Unfortunately however a good answer for you to each question is going to be based on what kind of sailor you are and what kind of person you are.
Since you are not a sailor and we know almost nothing about you, all the answers you get are going to be based on just guesses regarding you.

So I'm going to attempt to give you some general guidance that you can apply to your own situation.
I'm going to make one assumption. That assumption is that you do not have a trust fund that you can tap for a few 10's of thousands whenever you want to and are looking to achieve your dream for the least money. If you do have access to a lot of cash please mention it as the recommendations may change.

Rather than focusing on what kind of boat to buy, full keel, coastal, blue water, standing headroom etc. focus on becoming a sailor. Do not spend a dime extra that doesn't move you toward that goal.
You may not have to buy a boat to become a sailor. Clubs, other peoples boats, work at a boat yard etc may get you on the water for the next six months.
If you do have to buy a boat the only goal is to get a boat that will get you on the water as much as possible. A club 420, laser, small day sailor anything sail-able. If you get something that needs work you will be working on a boat instead of becoming a sailor. A big boat for 10 to 20k will take up a lot of time not sailing.

If you work at it hard for two years you will have spent almost no money and then you will be a sailor.
The little boat you can sell for what you paid for it.

You have a huge learning curve to be a safe, happy competent ocean sailor.
You can with luck and hard work accomplish anything.
The problem with ocean cruising is that the chances of someone making all the hundreds of decisions correctly that there life depends on then make the hundreds of decisions correctly to make if affordable and the hundreds of decisions correctly to make it fun takes more luck than most people have.
If you focus on becoming a sailor first, make the personnel contacts, learn about yourself in the context of sailing I believe your journey will be more fun, safer and you are much more likely to achieve your dream.

You are welcome to call If you just want to talk as I have some personal experience in exactly this subject.

One of my favorite sailing stories the idea that all sailors start out with a big full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The goal is to fill up the bag of experience be for the bag of luck is empty.

In short the reason why this is so hard for you is because "you don't know nutten". Do what you need to do to get some water under you keel and you have an easier time.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Improving a dinette table GoodOldBoat Gear & Maintenance 12 10-18-2010 12:32 PM
New chart table setup Omatako Gear & Maintenance 10 10-20-2008 03:45 PM
Sturdy Table Post IslanderGuy Gear & Maintenance 3 05-31-2008 04:16 PM
Making a New Salon Table Cruisingdad Gear & Maintenance 17 03-26-2008 01:12 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.