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  #81  
Old 10-12-2009
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It should be a decision that her parents make with her, not a decision by the government. Perhaps the caveat is, if she has to be rescued, than maybe her family should pick up the bill.
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  #82  
Old 10-12-2009
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'It should be a decision that her parents make with her, not a decision by the government."
Why? Is she the chattel goods property of her parents? Is her mother the property of her father, to be bought and sold at the market as well?

It has been said that the sign of an advanced society is how well it takes care of the elderly, the infirm, and others who cannot take care of themselves. That makes it the responsibility of society at large (the village, the government) to say "Pops, you're wrong,she can't go and if you can't take care of her, we'll do it for you."

Or, perhaps you can draw some rational line between society backing up the "supervision" of persons who need it (of any age and mental state) and the opposite approach, of saying the kids belong to the parents and can be treated like any other property. Logic must apply.
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  #83  
Old 10-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
'It should be a decision that her parents make with her, not a decision by the government."
Why? Is she the chattel goods property of her parents? Is her mother the property of her father, to be bought and sold at the market as well?

It has been said that the sign of an advanced society is how well it takes care of the elderly, the infirm, and others who cannot take care of themselves. That makes it the responsibility of society at large (the village, the government) to say "Pops, you're wrong,she can't go and if you can't take care of her, we'll do it for you."

Or, perhaps you can draw some rational line between society backing up the "supervision" of persons who need it (of any age and mental state) and the opposite approach, of saying the kids belong to the parents and can be treated like any other property. Logic must apply.
I don't consider children property to be bought and sold, but they are a parent's responsibility. Who better than the parents to know if their kid is ready to ride a bike or sail a boat at (X) age?


There are too many intrusive laws as it is.
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  #84  
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  #85  
Old 10-13-2009
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Hey porc - my bad. I actually dropped that into the wrong thread regarding the wrong punk going for the circ. I fixed it.
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  #86  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
The concerns that Andrew has expressed for Jessica don't really seem applicable to Laura. One is attempting to sail non-stop unassisted, which necessarily includes a long trip through the southern ocean. Laura has a much more conservative plan, which includes multiple stops and a trip through the Panama canal. The two voyages have very little in common.

If my daughter as a teenager had planned a trip like Laura's, I believe I would have supported her. If she planned one like Laura's, I probably would have discouraged her. In either case, I don't believe it is the government's position to usurp the parents role in making that decision.

Frankly I think that parents who push their daughters into beauty pageants, parading them around and teaching them to accept being objectified, do tremendous damage to their kids. And in that case it is not a risk they are taking, but a known consequence. Of course that is how I feel, and I am not lobbying for laws to outlaw these pageants even if I see them as inherently evil. Tolerating other viewpoints comes with liberty, people should learn to deal with it.

Len Porcano
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This.
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  #87  
Old 10-13-2009
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A bit confused, aren't you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
The concerns that Andrew has expressed for Jessica don't really seem applicable to Laura. One is attempting to sail non-stop unassisted, which necessarily includes a long trip through the southern ocean. Laura has a much more conservative plan, which includes multiple stops and a trip through the Panama canal. The two voyages have very little in common.

If my daughter as a teenager had planned a trip like Laura's, I believe I would have supported her. If she planned one like Laura's, I probably would have discouraged her. In either case, I don't believe it is the government's position to usurp the parents role in making that decision.

Frankly I think that parents who push their daughters into beauty pageants, parading them around and teaching them to accept being objectified, do tremendous damage to their kids. And in that case it is not a risk they are taking, but a known consequence. Of course that is how I feel, and I am not lobbying for laws to outlaw these pageants even if I see them as inherently evil. Tolerating other viewpoints comes with liberty, people should learn to deal with it.

Len Porcano
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  #88  
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Last edited by lporcano; 03-23-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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  #89  
Old 10-13-2009
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" Who better than the parents "
Ah, the same parents who won't use car seats or seat belts or bike helmets even after they've been ticketed for not doing so?
Unfortunately "parents" and "governments" are neither necessarily intelligent beings capable of protecting those who need protection.
When I was a kid there were no seaet belts and we could ride on the rear package shelf of the car on long trips to amuse ourselves. Hey, it was normal.
Today I see mothers heaving the baby stroller out into traffic at the crosswalk--before they look or step past the curb line themselves. You could swear they were trying to throw the kid under a car. Or wait, isn't that another news story, "Mom drowns three in car". "Child left in car, dies of heat". "Oh, I went it to work and forgot I had the kid in the back seat."

While I'm also vehemently against intrusive government, as far as I can tell, the only requirement for "parenting" is that something stayed in one place long enough to get pregnant. These days even five gallon buckets come with mandatory warning labels, because enough parents have allowed or encouraged their baby to play with the partly full bucket, unsupervised, and the kid toppled in and drowned. NO JOKE.

So, do the parents know if this kid is mature enough to circumnavigate? Maybe, but I'd rather see some objective board put her through, say, two weeks of Outward Bound solo screening to see another opinion. Or an eight hour test suite, or SOMETHING besides the "I can always hatch a couple more" opinion.

Heck, with only one crew on board, the USCG could turn her back as "manifestly unsafe and unfit" simply for not being able to keep a proper watch, in conformation with US & international law alike.
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  #90  
Old 10-13-2009
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how do we know if the 9-12 yr olds in other countries who are married and pregnant are able to stand up to the rigors of motherhood or fatherhood........are we her judge and jury? do we actually have a basis for our opinions?? will anyone take us seriously?/ why d o we impose our opinions and beliefs on other cultures?? we are raised differently than others are---even within our own boundaries....there is a lot for everyone to learn---even the kids sailing--look at the jessica girl in the pink boat---cannot set her alarms before going below to sleep even in the face of approaching ship traffic.....go figger-----sailing around the world is a great opportunity as well as a great danger. she can learn a lot from her trip --more than is offered in school.....is up to her to figger that out......and up to her parents to figger out if she is "mature enough" to live through it....we can make popcorn and watch with or without bated breath......halleluliah, she is not forbidden to be able to do this by her government-----
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