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  #71  
Old 01-25-2010
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I told you guys I'm a cruiser - I changed out my knot meter for another drink holder

Last edited by dillybar; 01-25-2010 at 08:55 PM.
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  #72  
Old 01-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thanks Brian. Let me see if I can add something and answer some of your questions.



If you read again you will see that I was considering jammed halfway in. If the sail jams it will probably not jam at the beginning.

About the flogging I had a bad experience with a jam in the genoa furler. I had a big genoa (150%) and the thing got stuck with the sail less than halfway rolled. With 30k of wind and too much wind for the sail, I had to let go and go forward to fix the problem. Luckily there were only two meter waves, but I can tell you that the mast was moving wildly (from one side to another) and that I was afraid and worried about its integrity. I have doubts that it could have taken a much stronger wind…and a mainsail is a strong sail, it takes time to be shredded. I don´t say that this can happen frequently, quite the opposite, it can never happen, but it remains a possibility, and a frightening one, at least for me.



Stability is not an easy matter to address and it is not as simple as you put it.

When we talk about a stiff boat normally we are talking of a boat that can take a lot of wind on its sails before getting a significant heeling. There are some very stiff boats, like the Hanse 430, that have poor reserve stability. They are beamy boats with lots of initial stability, (form stability) but with a relatively low AVS and a low Displacement/Ballast ratio. They offer a big resistance to capsizing (lots of righting moment till big angles of heeling) but if they get laid at 90º of heel they are making little force to right themselves up.

If you put an inmast furling on one of those, well….it is not a good idea.
Beneteaus, Jeanneaus and Bavarias are in this group, big form stability and low Displacement/Ballast ratio, sometimes as low as 27%. That doesn´t mean that they are bad or unsafe boats, but you have to know their strong and weak points to sail them safely offshore.

On the other hand, for example a Malo or a Halberg Rassy (with the same displacement) will have not the same initial stability as the Hanse, but will have a lot more reserve stability.

The manufactures take measures to compensate the diminution of the initial stability (they put less sail on the inmast furler version of the same model) but they don’t take any measure to compensate the diminution of reserve stability (they would have to put more ballast and reinforce the hull and that is expensive).

Of course you are right; almost all production boats go to coastal sailors that only go out with good weather and sometimes without any significant wind. But there are some few that use those boats for offshore sailing and they are capable of that, if well equipped and well sailed.



Yes, there is a tendency for inmast furling even on the ocean going boats. I suspect that it has to do with its price. They are so expensive that you have to be old to have money for one of those, and with age all things that make life easy are well coming . Not only inmast furling but also electric winches (they are also a tendency). It may be a necessity for the ones that are less physically able, but it doesn’t make a boat safer (or faster).

Off course, if I am so lucky as to be of good health in 20 years time, I will be sailing…and probably with an inmast furling, electric winches, pilot house and everything that can make it easier and permits me to sail longer.

About the crap that you put aboard and the effect on the stability, I remember that Dylibar has asked:



A well designed boat is more stable with full tanks. The initial stability will be a lot bigger as well as the overall stability till a significant heel (90º or so). Only de AVS would be a little worse and of course, the boat would have also a bigger inverted stability. If the boat has a decent AVS this will not be a problem. Even with a specified (by the designer) full load, the boat will remain more stable and the difference on the AVS (on the stability curves I know) will not be bigger than 5º.

If you charge your boat a lot beyond its full load, you should change for a bigger boat. That is a bad idea. The boat will sail badly the AVS will diminish significantly as the righting moment at more than 60º or 70º of heeling. It will be a much less safer boat and can even be unsafe.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

Your responses are well thought out and well reasoned. I have repeatedly found your comments to be educated and unbiased. Great job. It is very nice to have you on our board. Now, understand that I may not always agree with them (snicker), but I certainyl respect them and hope other members do too.

I will make one comment: On our trip across a few weeks ago we were in 25-35 sustained and gusts to 50. I was single handing. I tried to jibe the jib myself, which, looking back was not the right move. I should have done a lazy jibe (tack all the way through) but the seas were not pleasant for it.

During the jibe, the jib backed and wrapped around itself. You can guess the rest. THat is the nightmare scenario for a jib as you cannot drop it and you cannot unfurl it. That was one of my key reasons for wsaying earlier that in 50k wind, I believe you could take a knockdown with a main and I believe that most boats would. It certainly will become dangerous in the associated seas.

We were able to head up somewhat and unwrap the jib (after some time and considerable work). We were also able to find a point of sail that minimized the effects on the boat. That is why I am saying, first hand, that I believe a hung main could be dealt with as long as those using it maintain their cool. Now, if I had not been able to unwrap that jib, I am certain that we would have torn it up. How long would that have taken..... who knows.

Great discussion all.

Brian
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  #73  
Old 01-27-2010
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Brian, thanks for your kind words.

Regarding those incidents (flogging sails), you had a crew, I was alone and that can make a difference, regarding the options you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dillybar View Post
… the furler would have to fail (never happened in 15,000 miles)…
Dillybar, that’s an impressive statement. Never? Or never in a way that you cannot fix it?

It would be very interesting to have more information on the reliability of the inmast furling.
I t would be very useful if the forum members that use the system, post about their experience with it:

1- Year and model brand (mast furling).
2- Number of miles made with the system.
3- Number of problems.
4- Problem description referring also the sea and wind conditions.

Perhaps this way we can have a correct assessment of the system reliability.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-27-2010 at 05:15 PM.
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  #74  
Old 04-22-2010
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  #75  
Old 10-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian, thanks for your kind words.

Regarding those incidents (flogging sails), you had a crew, I was alone and that can make a difference, regarding the options you have.



Dillybar, that’s an impressive statement. Never? Or never in a way that you cannot fix it?

It would be very interesting to have more information on the reliability of the inmast furling.
I t would be very useful if the forum members that use the system, post about their experience with it:

1- Year and model brand (mast furling).
2- Number of miles made with the system.
3- Number of problems.
4- Problem description referring also the sea and wind conditions.

Perhaps this way we can have a correct assessment of the system reliability.

Regards

Paulo
Well, having now completed my third season with an in mast system having come from a full batten main with a "strong track" I am on the whole happy with the system.

The boat is an Oyster 55 which was delivered from the factory with a Hood in mast furling system (As are almost all of the 55's). In the case of mine there is a continuous line drive system which furls the sail, most of the later systems were either electric or hydraulic. There is a small electric winch on the coach roof with a load cut-off switch to avoid overloading anything.

I had the mast out of the boat last winter and replaced all of the standing rigging and the piece of rod rigging inside of the furler while I had the mast taken down to bare metal, inspected, welds touched up as necessary and general maintenance.

The vessel has something like 10,000 sea miles and there is no indication that previous owners had any issues with the system.

While I have about 25K miles offshore on the previous vessel I am still in refit mode on the new vessel so I don't have alot of data for extended passages but the miles I have are sea miles and sometimes in rough weather coming back from Catalina Island here in southern CA. The winter weather can be "unsettled" at times.

I will continue to monitor the system and report back.
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  #76  
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Old 10-09-2011
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I've had in mast furling for 7 years, really no problems. You have to pay attention and use it intelligently, but that's true of anything on a boat.

Because it's loose footed you get better shape in the lower sail than most systems.

Mine's electric. The one time the motor packed it in (I bought the boat used, turns out it was 12 years between rebuilds on the motor) I found it a piece of cake to use the manual override.

Racing sailors who come aboard are frequently surprised at how well the main shapes out, and how you can manage draft and twist if you're so inclined.

It's made family cruising much more enjoyable. We sail more, we'll roll the sail in and out a lot to adjust for conditions In stronger conditions, and will roll it in or out 1-2 turns at a time to balance helm.

We did Bermuda and back last summer, a few things gave us trouble, the in-mast wasn't one of them.

I might consider switching to a conventional system with slab reefing with an electric halyard winch. I don't think I'd trade for in-boom. If you use your brain the inmast is pretty trouble free. If you don't, well, none of the systems will bail your ass out.

Mine has the extrusion in the mast. It's a Hood built by Hinckley.

They can whistle at a dock if the mast slot gets the right angle to the wind. Not a problem at anchor or mooring.

If you don't like them, don't get one, but don't use the excuse that they're only for coastal sailing or unseamanlike. There are waaaay too many big Oysters, Little Harbors, Hinckleys, 100'+ customs, that have put in a lot of miles with these systems. I have over 30 years of engineering and 40 years of sailing experience, and like mine just fine.
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  #78  
Old 10-10-2011
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Exactly
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  #79  
Old 10-10-2011
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Seldon circa 2002. Manual not electric.

Probably the single biggest concern in buying the Malo. I have always had an aversion to in mast furling even though I had never used one in anger until we tried out a Passport 42 with electric furling a couple of years back. To be honest I had no problems with the thing though a failiure of the switching (corrosion) gave me pause. Manual overide is there of course but that is on the mast.

Malo has manual system. Unfurling is simple and easy though I am not at all sure that it is all that much easier than raising a normal main with good cars. This is to some extent a Malo issue as the solar panels block a clear view of the outer boom end making it difficult to see if clew is out far enough. Minor not major issue, just a bit clumsy.

Furling (to reef ) on the other hand is more of a bother when you have breeze. I'm suspecting that I'm doing something wrong but keeping tension on the outhaul is the issue. Releasing the outhaul allows the clew to rush forward leaving a baggy flopping sail. Working out how to do a controlled easing of the outhaul (in wind) is something I simply have not mastered. A winch for furler and a winch for outhaul would do the trick but on starboard (jammers are to port) one winch is occupied with the headsail sheet.

As I say, I think I am missing something obvious. Indeed coming down the coast on the weekend I did manage to get it exactly right but then promptly forgot what is was I did.

Soooo ... in mast furling people ... what is you technique for controlling the outhaul as you reef.
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  #80  
Old 10-10-2011
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I have also had the clew go flying forward along the boom when reefing in 20 +.

The amount of pressure on the foot of the sail always surprises me. I have found that for furling in or reefing, at least for the first 1/3 I need to be dead into the wind above 10 kn. I will ease the mainsheet enough to give it a foot of play either side of centre. If I have crew, I ask them to grab the outhaul and keep a small bit of tension on it. If I don't have crew, I can wrap it backwards around a winch and keep a bit of tension that way.

Doesn't always work out though.

If I have to furl the main while the booms slops around, in order to gain control, so be it. I can always re-roll it properly later.
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