Why are Cement Hulls, Bad ? or Are they ?

[JohnRPollard]

Originally Posted by Jeff_H

...Atkin's also designed a 32 footer called the Eric that was more closely related to Colin Archers designs. The Eric formed the basis for the Westsail 32.

In any event, the Ingrid design was eventually adapted to fiberglass and sold as a an Alejuela and Pacific Seacraft 38 (not to be mistaken for the later Pacific Seacraft 37) as well as under a variety of other names built by a number of builders world wide. ....

Jeff, all very interesting.

Two points of elaboration: I have often heard it stated that Crealock adapted the Westsail 32 from Atkin's Eric. Atkin actually had two similar designs, Eric and Thistle, that shared a common hull. But whereas Eric was a gaff-rigged ketch, Thistle used the same rig (cutter with sprit and boomkin) that was carried over to the Westsail 32. In that sense, I think it's more accurate to say that the Westsail 32 derived from Thistle. I'm sure there'll be no end to debate on that one, though.

Also, I'm unaware of a Pacific Seacraft 38 model that was ever built (Bob Perry was designing a 38 footer for PSC/California a few years back, but it was only on paper). There were, however, two west coast companies selling the Ingrids: Alajeula Yachts (Alajeula 38, sold as a cutter) and Blue Water Boats (Ingrid 38, sold as a ketch, often in kit form). Could one of these be the "PSC 38" you were remembering?

[Jeff_H]

John,

Good points. I have always understood that the design was called the "Eric", but that the adaptation of that design to a cutter rig was done for a boat called "Thistle". I could have that wrong.

It was my understanding that when Pacific Seacraft went into business it briefly built the Alejuela as a Pacific Seacraft 38 before reselling the tooling when the tooled up the PS 37. Again I may be remembering this incorrectly.

Jeff

[DCClancy]

What Is Ferro-Cement? For those who aren't familiar with Ferro Cement, it's a method of building in which the shell of the boat is built of a steel wire mesh and rod matrix, which is then permeated with a concrete mixture. The mortar is cured carefully to a minimum of 8,000 psi (to meet our specs). The resulting structure is a strong and rugged shell that will not burn, is not affected by ice, is resistant to chemical attack, and has a mortar that actually strengthens with age.

How Did It Get Started? The first ferro-cement boats were built in the middle 1800's and are still in a museum in Europe. World War I saw the building of large concrete ships, some of which I've seen still afloat as breakwaters. During World War II, some experimental vessels were built which proved the material on some good-sized working vessels and later on some yachts.

The building craze that began in the late 1960's was fueled mainly by promoters who spent more effort in selling franchises for their books and plans than in improving the technology. The few builders who built good quality boats often got overlooked with the vast numbers of amateur built boats sprouting up everywhere.

I had learned how to do it the right way while working for a licensee of the English Windboats Ltd. firm, who were the only ones building Lloyd's approved structures.

Following this experience, I did some additional work in the testing labs to develop a range of shell layups that would span the range of 12' to 90' designs we worked on. This knowledge gave us the technology to design much lighter and stronger boats than were commonly being done. It was an uphill battle to get people to recognize that chicken wire was not the best choice, though in the end almost everyone ended up using the same square welded mesh that we did.


PRACTICAL FERRO-CEMENT BOATBUILDING

After a bit of this development and designing work, I teamed up and co-authored a book on the subject, titled Practical Ferro-Cement Boatbuilding. It was quite well received and widely distributed, going through 11,000 copies in four separate editions. This book covered the ideas, tools and techniques that we had developed to build lighter and better ferro-cement boats.

This book has been out-of-print for a long time now, though I still am able to occasionally pick up a copy in a used bookstore. Thus, we have a very few copies that we keep for those who are determined, usually against our advice, to build in ferro-cement.

What Ever Happened To Ferro-Cement? Too many people who read Samson's ads saying they could build the hull and deck of a 45-footer for $2,000 didn't realize that was only the beginning of the money they would have to spend to make a complete boat. It usually took ten times that much to fully outfit the boat in those days.

Also, their publications stressed how easy and quick they were to build. Too many of the resulting boats looked like the builders took that advice literally. They were - and still are, for how do you dispose of cement? - an eyesore, enjoying very low, if any, resale value. Their being readily identifiable as ferro-cement has given a bad name to all ferro-cement boats. The good ones were always mistaken for wooden or custom fiberglass boats, and thus no credit was given to the medium of ferro-cement.

So, although it is still a viable way to build a tough and long-lasting boat, I have not been able to give it an unqualified recommendation for some time. It is very frustrating for me and much more so for the owners of the good boats to find that they can't get the same return on their invested time and money than if they had built in wood or fiberglass.

Do You Still Sell Plans For Ferro-Cement? Yes, but only when we've given the caution above to the prospective buyers. Most of our few remaining ferro-cement sales are now going overseas where there is still a bit more viable market for the finished boats.

What About Buying A Used Ferro-Cement Boat? With the negative attitudes prevailing about ferro-cement boats, their prices are usually quite low. The only problem in buying one is the difficulty in doing a proper survey. This is a two-part problem with the lack of many experienced surveyors and the difficulty of knowing what few clues to look for in the survey. If the seller has photos documenting the whole of the construction of the armature and the plastering, this is a big help. It they did mortar sampling and testing to assure the correct mortar strength this helps to prove the quality of the initial construction.

From there, it is a matter of looking at the level of finish and fairness of the structure, the quality of the detailing of how things are attached to the structure, and if there are any visible clues to maintenance work that has been overlooked. If you can find a good one that can be used as is and without any major investment in finishing it or adding equipment, then you might have some hope of reselling it later without loosing all your investment.

[SchoonerSailor]

I must say, I am exhausted from reading all the posts on ferros !
I have been looking at a old Samson Schooner to buy.
Now first, I will say I am a Lic. Capt. and professional yacht painter and have owned mostly wood boats. I currently own, Captain and live on a 93 foot, 220 ton tugboat. So, I know large boats all too well.
This schooner is 53 on deck which is a good size for Ferro.
I have read all the books I can get my hands on and all the posts.
I am still totally split in my thoughts here.
Since I own large wood vessels, I obviously dont care about dumping money in I will never get back. So resale doesnt matter to me.
Not that I have tons of money, hell, I have too many boats. I am far from well off. But , I do work hard for what I want.
This particular boat is said to have been built IN the Samson yard, not backyard built OR designed !!! The first PLUS.
But she has been neglected and with no decent surveyors around makes it hard. I dont care about insurance. Dont need it where I would keep her.
The books from Samson and Harley of course talk about the great strength etc of the medium. Yet people here say the opposite.
Opinions are like assholes.. as we know. Everyone has one.
So its hard to weed out the sheer truth.
I love wood boats and many hate them.
Mine is 102 years old and doing just fine.
I am probably going to take on that old Ferro Schooner after selling the one I live on now. As my kids grow up I just keep buying smaller boats so they cant move back in with me. Works well.
So what is the general take on Samson YARD built boats, not homemade ones off plans?
I do love her lines and a couple of her sisters have made several circumnavigations. She is a staysail plan. I dont know her displacement.
54 on deck, 73 overall. 7 in draft, almost 16 wide.
This particular one has a very odd wishbone rig that goes way up between the masts I dont care much for. Seems to much wt aloft. The others did not have that with the same sail plan?
Also, she is deck stepped and not keel stepped on the masts. They are said to be of steal. Cement deck. Rotted out spreaders.. all of them.
I have NO idea how the heck to attach items to cement. I use Dolphinite to bed everything. Heavy backing plates. etc. I heard fuel can really ruin them.
The hull looks rough, scrapes and dings. Yet she is 1976 and still floating at her lines. Dry inside with no rust streaks.
What do I make of this boat? I want to sail around the world. Not in a bay.
Many of her design have done so. She is a Samson C-lord.
Andie

[CharlieCobra]

There's a 90' Ferro yacht that's unfinished with a big Cat motor in it up in my boat yard that's for free if ya move it. Frankly, I wouldn't touch it as there's all kinds of rust streaks inside and it's been open to the weather for years. I have seen a few very nice Ferro boats though. One recently that you'd swear was glass.

[artbyjody]

Heraclitus Report: April 2009

There are others, personally - well never would own one but it is interesting the number that do circumvent...

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by schoonersailor

I must say, I am exhausted from reading all the posts on ferros !
I have been looking at a old Samson Schooner to buy.

Well since you posted..

In your case I would say go for it..You have done your homework and are not the first time boat buyers looking for that "Cheap blue water excape pod"

You acknowledge the risks and accept a level of satisfaction to deal with loosing money invested.

So this could be a win win you you.

I would have taken one in sail ready condition if it was given to me but I just wont buy one...there is one in my town that the yard wont even lift out of the water for fear of it breaking in half but its still floating..somthing to say for it anyway.

[osirissail]

Ferro-cement was abandoned when FRG boats being mass produced by the hundreds out of moulds and sold for considerably lower prices than "properly made F/C." You could "screw up" the manufacture of the a FRG boat and get away with it for decades. Not so with F/C. Not to mention the shear weight difference requiring deeper draft and less nimble-ness.

[RichardReynolds]

Not true seabreeze. Here in Oregon we have been busy for the last ten years or so replacing our coast bridges. The rebar is rusting out. The rebar they are using for the new bridges is green in color. Probably epoxy coated.

[chris31519]

In the early 1980s, when I was young and foolish I bought a 30' ferro hull and fitted it out with a junk rig. Never had enough money for the engine so used an outboard. The thing stopped about as quickly an oil tanker. I sold it half-finished and bought a 22' GRP boat. I saw the boat some years later - it had been through three owners after me and never did get finished. Common trick to underestimate the time and costs of fitting out a boat. This is not an uncommon stroy for ferro boats which is why they have such a bad reputation. The material itself is not the issue it's how it's built: you can have good or bad boats form any material. Ferro is pretty much indestructible in my experience. If you are looking for a large (min 45') HEAVY displacement cruiser at low costs then you could do worse. Personally I would buy something more mainstream as the purchase costs are only part of the story in boat ownership.