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post #91 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
Meh, so I have my opinions... why not just handle it without all the chastising and snakiness yourself?

And honestly, what's with insulting my sailing resume'? You don't have any way to even know anything about that, yet you're mouthing off about it like you have a clue.

You have been very open online about your sailing resume, I've had no need to "guess".

My whole point is, you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. It's pretty screwed up to insult people who use their engines when you haven't even set out on your grand, engineless cruise yet yourself.

Once again- I am not at all disparaging your choice to sail engineless. I could care less. You are so hypersensitive to criticism these days about engineless sailing, that now you lash out at anyone who even remotely questions the concept. What I'm busting your balls about, is you throwing paint all over the entire forum about what a bunch of motorsailers we all are just because we don't aspire to your level of purism.

Once you move aboard, and sail engineless down the ICW and bounce around the Bahamas and come back, you can tell us what a bunch of loser, motorsailers we all are for polluting the pureness of sailing.

Until then, you only aspire to engineless sailing. It's admirable, go for it, and stop slinging s**t until you've done it.

S/V Old Shoes
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post #92 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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chris, I find it interesting that you commented on the "argument aspect" of such threads, and as you enter, it begins. Just an observation, as we all should choose our verbage more wisely than we do, I'm afraid, and yes, I would agree, the "Motorsailnet" comment was the beginning of said 'argument'. Again, just an observation.

As to the whole "engine vs. engineless" idea, I would say to each his own. I do, however, find it ironic that we mention the boats of centuries ago when it was those very type people who found a way to get a motor on a sailboat in the first place. I assure you, had there been a more efficient way to enter/exit a harbor, etc., they would've more than likely chose such, and we're having this mild debate on the internet, of all things. The bottom line, to me anyway, is that engines are an "improvement" to the concept of sailing, because if I didn't have one, I wouldn't be able to sail. At least as I desire. I am lucky enough to live on a main channel, but with a zero-lot-line. The builders, in their infinite wisdom at the time, chose to put my dock-lift combo and the far west end of my lot while putting my neighbors at the far east end of his. You may have guessed it, he's west of me, so both our 27' sailboats have about 2' separating them, my bow to his stern. Couple that with the fact that our private channel is only about 18' wide in some spots, and once you're outside it, the continental shelf greets you at about 2 feet. I've known some very skilled sailors...lifelongers if you will, that wouldn't consider bringing a boat into my house under sail alone. It's not "prudent".

Now, if I was retired, and didn't own this house, and lived on my boat, and was currently on my 3rd trip around the world, with no particular agenda.....heck yeah I'd like to have the extra storage. We're all similiar, yet worlds apart.
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post #93 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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I wish you would all refrain from quoting the one and only poster on my ignore list.... I then have to read the dribble anyway. The constant disagreeable nature just isn't worth my time.

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post #94 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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just like in surfing, people tell me , geez otter, you surf till end of november in a 3/2 wetsuit! youve got balls! nope.. im cheap. i could call myself a purist, but i dont. i dont feel like buying a 600 dollar suit if i dont have too. just because someone gets into the whole engineless debate about how motors are the devil, chances are they are too cheap, broke to afford one, like justifying a bad decision. im not saying the poster is or isnt, its just my observation. take me with my new suv.. moonroofs, leather and heated seats are great. i could say nah , all that stuff is meaning less blah blah but i just didnt want to shell out an extra ten grand for it, i dont say well moonroofs and leather are a horrible choice, and anyone who has them is a wimp for wanting/ having them. the poster will see the first time hes trying to get in or out of a tidal surging inlet while impending doom looms in the shape of a jagged jetty. alot of steel hull boats have become a statistic on the jettys here in NJ. a fiberglass boat stands no chance. good luck and godspeed.
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post #95 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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Reading this brings back some memories about my Dad. We were in partnership on a Coronado 25, sailing out of Sausalito on SF Bay for 10 years. As he had many, many years of sailing experience on the Bay he was considered the "Captain". He fiercely hated to run the motor except for the 2 hour run outside to get to Double Point to fish for Salmon. One day, with my wife and our two small daughters aboard we were becalmed on the east side of Angle Island. It went something like this: Me:" Dad, there is a ship closing on us with a big bow wake, we better start the motor and get out of the way",
Dad: "we can make it, I will scull with the tiller" Me:" he is gaining on us fast" Dad:" we can make it". I then pushed past him, lowered and finally started the motor. The ship passed us no more than 50 to 100 yards away, way too close. Me: " What the he*l
were you thinking, we were almost rundown", Dad:" We could have made it". Interestingly, the ship never blinked, no course or speed change, no 5 blasts from the whistle (horn?), nothing. If the motor had not started we would have all been killed.
Feel free to sail a boat you can't row in waters that have commercial traffic, it is a free country.

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post #96 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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I really admire you guys that are engine-less. That conjures up great images of the good old days. However; I know I am years away from having the experience/skills/knowledge to do such a thing. Getting into a slip or anchorage WITH an engine is often a stretch for my skills - maybe someday. | Sailing, development, and life with JD
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post #97 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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If you want to sail enginless, that is your choice. I do not have the skills or the inclination to go that route. If you want to go into some harbors, Avalon or isthmus in Catalina for example, you NEED an engine. The harbor master requires it. My slip can be sailed into if you are skilled enough, but I will only do it if I have an engine failure.

For all the enginless sailors out there, what do you do when you are on a lee shore in an area of poor holding for your anchor with a storm comming. I start the engine and get out of there.

People have said that in the past, ships did not have engines and they got around. Many of them did not get around dangerous points. The area around Point Conception north of Santa Barbara, CA is littered with shipwreaks. Sometimes an engine will save your life.

Several years ago, my wife and I were in a rented Catalina 27. We went out for a day sail around Anacapa Island. As we were passing through the slot between Anacapa and Santa Cruz Island a strom came up. The winds were about 50kts and the seas were 12' to 15'. The weather was predicted to be 10 to 15 kkts all day. We dropped the sails and motored out of the slot. As we cleared the islands, the wind calmed down to 10 kts. We had a pleasant sail home. The engine saved our bacon on that day.

I would not leave the slip without a working engine now.

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post #98 of 116 Old 08-17-2011
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Well, to tell the truth our PaceShip PY23 has a 9.9 Johnson hanging off the back of it but we try not to use it except for safety and charging the battery. I'll admit that some days it does take a while to moor or slip a mooring in becalming winds but it is all part of learning how your ship handles. Kind of like parallel parking after years of mall parkades, it gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment. If you like the boat then get a lowering motor mount on the transom and you can stop worrying about your money and safety.
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post #99 of 116 Old 08-18-2011
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"Regarding your lee shore question, what would you do in that situation? I'd prolly try all my hooks until one grabbed, or maybe I'd claw off, I dunno.. I'd have to have more info on the variables of the scenario to give you a better answer.["/QUOTE]


I am not familiar with the waters you sail in. If losing power or not having any to begin within the SF Bay or outside ocean areas it could be challenging.
In the ocean waters outside the Bay much of it is deep right up to the shore line with a rocky bottom, very hard to get an anchor to hold. Also, high ridges tend to blanket the wind close to the shore line. Inside the Bay after you get past the entrance, about a mile or so in, it is not too deep with a mud bottom allowing one to anchor if necessary, but not in the ship channels. I suppose a lot depends on the area you sail in? As mentioned earlier, Commercial traffic is a big threat if you are dead in the water. The Duck boat back east that had engine trouble, anchored and was then promptly run down by a barge comes to mind.


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post #100 of 116 Old 08-18-2011
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Getting past who has the wrong or right 'tude for the moment, has anyone suggested towing a dinghy with a small outboard? It's fun for exploring ports and shallow places once you're anchored, and you could hip it up to you in calm weather and just steer from your tiller, especially in those narrow marina streets and alleys where power can be handy.

I've done this on occasion, though not as a steady diet. Worked pretty well. And you could always use it on a transom bracket, though the long shaft for that might make you kinda deep on the dinghy.

I'm staying away from the lee shore in snotty weather discussion. A hipped-up dinghy isn't for that obviously. But for the everyday stuff it could be.

Last edited by nolatom; 08-18-2011 at 01:55 PM.
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