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A Conundrum, without an Answer

6K views 50 replies 24 participants last post by  wind_magic 
#1 ·
Tally ho .. again .. After my sometimes squabbly Engine-Less
sailing question, I felt a followup was in order. Recently, I
began to look at sailboats; again. I sold my last boat well over
a year ago, and I needed some time off. I looked at a few for sale
postings, the usual. What I found was a number of very worthy
sailboats, boats with quality hulls, sound decks, good rigging and sails,
blah blah .. that the owners are offering but .. the big BUT:: these boats
all have the old Atomic 4 gasoline engine, and the owners all told me
with some prodding that the engines have "issues". So, basically, the
boats do not have working engines. I few calls to repower engine folks,
or boatyards, and to get a general idea of what a repower might cost?
Many thousands of dollars. In every case, the cost of a replacement
engine was much more than the boat was/is worth. Its not the take out
of the old AT4 that is expensive, it is the cost of the new engine, the associated parts such as muffler/exhaust/bed/fuel tank .. and the placing
of the new engine in place, hook ups, etc. I am not a fan of outboard engines, especially on larger boats. So: what is the answer? Short of
spending $12,000 dollars on a boat that is only worth $10,000, is there an answer? It is a shame and very disheartening for the owners of these boats, that they can not sell them. Also, as a potential purchaser, I feel
dirty telling the owner of an otherwise quality sailboat that his boat is not even worth $100 dollars. A marine surveyor I spoke with was blunt "the boat is worthless without a quality diesel engine". How does one tell the seller, without sounding like a total jerk, that the boat he is asking $10,000 dollars for is not worth $100 dollars? I sent an outline of what the surveyor told me to one seller, and I included that I was not trying to steal his boat or come off sounding like a jerk .. but what can one do. Oh.. well.
 
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#32 ·
I believe that Beta (Kubota based) sells 14-22 HP diesels, that can be ordered to fit existing engine beds, when replacing common engines like the A4, and Yanmar 2Gm, etc.

Having bought (and done major work on) a fixer upper, with a working, and still reliable older diesel (1982 Yanmar 2Gm), if I were to do it again I would look at one of two options:

1. As previously mentioned by others, look for an owner (like me) who has done extensive work, or lots of maintenance and upgrading, who, if he needs to sell, will never recoup their investment in equipment $$ (not to mention labour).

2. Find a well designed, well proven baot, with a sound hull and decks, with a dead or near dead engine that brings it's value down. Buy a Beta or similar replacement engine, knowing you will need to redo exhaust, wiring, etc, but not reinvent the wheel when it comes to redesigning engine beds, etc. Check with other owners who have repowered to anticipate possible problems.
You should be able to find a solid 28-30'er for $5-8K, with a dead engine.
Ask around boatyards for neglected boats, and make an offer if the hull / deck is solid.
 
#34 ·
wind magic ,, are you always so disagreeable? Rather than invent what I am thinking... read the posting. I am posing a question. I've owned expensive boats, and I've owned cheap boats. The point is, there are many very worthy, good looking, well equipped sailboats, sound, stout, sailboats sitting at docks, in boatyards, and for sale, that have one big problem: the engine, inboard engine. Sure, could go out and repower with a nice Yanmar, spend $8000 dollars, or rebuild the AT4, spend $5000 dollars. What I'm wondering, why not a different approach. The Maine schooners use push boats. Racing yachts mostly get towed. Then there are the Pardeys, no engine. Of course, they sail open ocean where the wind is prevailing, and they make long passages. And they take a tow. That's ok, no problem there.. I sail along, single handed. If not for that, I'd use the push boat ideas in a heart beat. Sure, it would limit some sailing. And I'm sure I'd need to watch the tides much more. But say I bought a very worthy, sound sailboat with good sailing equipment: rig/sails/hull/deck/.. think what that $12,000 dollars I'd save on no engine could purchase.. whew.. I'm going to the shopping part of sailnet.. this could be fun... Let's think..?? Start with Solar Power.. Stereo, tV, .. Windvane ... Wind Power. And I will still have money left over .. YeS.
 
#36 ·
Apology accepted.. and let's move on to better ports.. Actually you were not all that disagreeable,, just cantankerous. which is disagreeable with class.. hahah

Found a couple more beauties,, same problem .. the engine.. Crazy.. Driving myself nuts looking at these boats. Question: what is the smallest diesel inboard sold today? Might be a kinda solution, underpower the boat. Heck, does not take much to get to the dock, or mooring. On my old Bristol the AT4 never put out more than about 12hp, at least that is what one so called expert told me.. and the engine is rated at 30hp I think. Mostly, I used the engine is very low rpm, idle speed. With a diesel, low rpm, a smaller hp will produce more push, right?

Gotta find that one in a million..
 
#38 · (Edited)
The twin hydraulic thing with a central power plant has been done on a big CAT and unfortunately for the owner it was done BADLY and is on a blog out there someplace .

The single cylinder Diesel much like my single cylinder outboard is just and evil shaking beast compared to its 2 and 3 cylinder brothers

$4800 (East Boston) Your kidding your self if you think a boat at this price does not have serious issues



This will most likely be the best place in the boat

I am starting with a boat that's screwed because i like the boat and don't expect to recoup the cost and nobody WHO TAKES GOOD care of there boat recoups the cost .

The yard bills on my friends like NEW 20 year old Tartan 372 has easly exceeded the purchase price :)





This in one of the my best how bad even a mast can make a boat look and to take it apart RIGHT paint it and put it back together is well over 600 dollars JUST in material and parts with enough hours to make your head spin if you don't want to do a hack job
 
#39 ·
Jasper,
My boat had an atomic 4 when I bought it.It ran like crap but luckily was a fresh water engine.
I took it out myself, stripped it, sent the head out to a machine shop to get refinished and ordered all new seals and gaskets.
I stripped, cleaned and painted everything for reassembly.
There were a few parts I figured I should replace in the cooling system and ordered from moyer.Some Were available from locals who carried the parts in "like new" condition after a couple hours of research.
Basically, I replaced anything questionable, painted it and slapped it back in.
Total cost was $2000, all ready to go by the time I launched.
Additional costs were a new alloy tank and a new muffler this past season.
The engine has run like a clock for 2 years now.No issues ever.There was other work required such as new guages, re-wiring, installing a fuel filter, water seperator and new blower motor but this was part of owning an older boat and reflective of the price I paid.
I change the oil twice a year ($20), do a tune up once a year ($100) and change the impellar once a year ($25).
My father has an original 73 a4 in his boat that runs perfect.
These are good engines if you take the time to get to know them and do the proper maintence.Anything you need to know is in the shop manual.
Dont get me wrong, I would trade for a new diesel in a heartbeat but I really like my boat and until its financially possible im working with what I have.
 
#40 ·
It seems to me that there are two schools of thought going on is these threads assuming an engine will be used. One school is that the engine is only required for docking and the other one sees it as an alternate mode of transportation. These two different views produce a wildly different engine criteria. I get the impression that the OP is looking for the docking only type of engine. Luckily, this engine could also be used to power the boat in flat calm conditions, it just won't be powerful enough to push into any wind or waves. That would mean that you would need a sail inventory that allowed sailing in all weather that you might experience including severe thunderstorms with 50 knot winds. It would also mean investing in really good ground tackle that you knew would set everytime and be able to hold during those high wind events. In some senses, people make a trade off between investing in a really reliable engine or really good sail inventory and ground tackle. Ideally, you would have both but a significant portion of people do not.

So Jasper Windvane, so that I am clear, is the motor for negotiation the marina in normal wind conditions only or do you plan on covering a lot of miles under power?
 
#41 ·
klem
I believe that whether the engine is for mobility on a regular basis or just entering/leaving the harbour it should be reliable. I think an engine that is used more often and taken upto operating temp would be my choice over having one that is used seldom and never gets warmed up properly. Whether the engine is large enough to punch into a head sea is another matter. A case in point would be my boat. CS27, disp designed 6100, more like 7000 though, with a Yanmar YSE8 engine. 8 hp max 1 hr rating, 6 hp continuous at 2600 rpm and 7 hp continuous full out. No, it won't buck a head sea that well. But it's reliable and always starts. Small is ok in my opinion but to be reliable I think it should be used regularly.
tommays
I don't doubt that a 27' Tartan at $4800 might have an issue or two,:D but one of them is not an A4 which seems to be Jaspers biggest issue with what he's seen. As a member of the Tartan 27 group I was emailed that it was for sale, didn't search for it. But I think I could find many boats with a diesel for a reasonable price and they won't all have serious issues though we all know a 20 - 30 year old boat will have some things needed. A quick Yachtworld search shows 214 boats between 10k and 18k in the US between 28 and 32 feet.
When I looked for my current boat I can't recall seeing anything without a diesel.
Brian
 
#42 ·
mitiempo,

I agree with you on the engine needing to be reliable. I was looking more at engine size and inboard vs outboard. A 6hp outboard would be fine for getting in and out of a marina on relatively calm days but wouldn't push the boat into 30 knots of wind and the associated chop where a more powerful inboard would be required. If an engine is unreliable, you might as well not even have one.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Jasper Windvane,

Just wanted to comment about electric boat motors replacing fossil fuel motors in your next sailboat.

There are different AC & DC motors, reducers, etc out there available for electric boat conversions. There are also packaged and ready to install kits available from Asmo Marine or Electric Yacht and these are electric motor conversion kits. Frankly speaking with a kit the work is almost done as the engineering and plug & play components are already proven to work. You might contact them and ask to talk to customers who have installed these electric motor conversion kits in their sailboats and ask how they like them.

You can also get a DC motor, controller and reducer, throttle and motor brackets as these items are available. I converted a 26' boat to electric propulsion with a 7 HP DC motor. She goes along at 5-6 knots with ease. There is considerably less weight, she recharges in 4-6 hours and there is almost no maintenance. I suggest if you re-power any sailboat to carefully look at the great attributes of an electric boat drive for your auxiliary. Also, with a properly installed electric auxiliary you should be able to charge the batteries when you are sailing.

I hope this has been helpful.

JCR
 
#47 ·
If your really tapped a 4Hp will move and 8000# boat in and out of the dock and in fact push it 12 miles on less than 1.5 gallons of fuel

I did have to drop 101 dollars on a high thrust prop
So how does this work?
You clamp the motor to the board.
Drop in place on the ladder
Climb down the latter to start.

Do your thing

Climb down to stop.
Unhook board
unclamp motor.

Is that about it or do you have some easier way to manage?
 
#46 ·
Capt Klem,, you make some very good points. In my case, the engine is just for getting on or off, or in and out. Funny thing is; my former boat had an Atomic 4. The engine was totally rebuilt, fresh water cooled, tuned, oil changed.. I mean EVERYTHING. But the AT4 died at the most critical times. So, I became a better sailor. I had to. Or die. I got to the point where I did not rely on the engine, planned around it, and gained more and more confidence. It did cause me to change my plans often, watch the tides, always prepare for the worse. Reef early .. and ground tackle? I"m talking A N CHOrs.. big ones.. with new chain. As far as thunderstorms with 50kt winds? I dropped the sails, tied every thing down and pointed her into the wind.. Anyhow, the cost of sails, ground tackle, etc is cheap compared to a new diesel engine. Heck, there are used sails for short money. I found all kinds of anchors cheap when I had my Bristol. The chain was costly, but then only a couple hundred. The engine is the big money pit, in my opinion. I checked out a new diesel from beta.. aprox $5000 for the engine, and another $2000 for the other stuff .. and then there is the exhaust, muffler, electric, install.. Just think how many used sails, or anchors you could buy for $12,000 .. I'd have more sails.. wowo.. spinnakers, gennakers, jibs, gennys, storm this, storm that ..
 
#49 ·
mitiempo.. My last boat, which I sold over a year ago, has an Atomic 4. The engine was taken out of the boat and totally rebuilt by the former owner. Had fresh water cooling, everything the Moyer could give her. And yet? When I needed her, she was a finicky beast. I just did not trust that old gasoline engine. Once the carb float got stuck, and I got gasoline into the bildge. It gets your attention.. I would prefer to find some other way, besides the AT4 or gasoline engine, to get in and out of mooring area. I've been learning here, and I got a copy of the book that was recommended "wind and tide" which is about engineless sailing. I just started reading it today. I don't think it would be possible to go engine less where I sail. I need to grab a mooring, and there is tide etc. But.. Good reading, and learning..
 
#51 ·
I've been learning here, and I got a copy of the book that was recommended "wind and tide" which is about engineless sailing. I just started reading it today. I don't think it would be possible to go engine less where I sail. I need to grab a mooring, and there is tide etc. But.. Good reading, and learning..
I'm relieved to hear you like the book, I hate recommending a book only to find out the person who gets a copy doesn't get anything out of it!
 
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