The Mast, for new Rigging, off or leave up? - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 12 Old 11-20-2009 Thread Starter
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The Mast, for new Rigging, off or leave up?

A sailboat I am itching to see .. the standing rigging is very old,
maybe even original. The owner asked a rigging outfit to give a
quote to re rig. New Standing rigging and new lifelines. I looked
at the quote, and part of the quote goes into the removal of the
mast. And at the completion of the rigging work, the mast will go
back in place. That is expensive, big bucks. Over $1000 dollars.
I got thinking ?? Why take the mast down. What is needed is new
wire, turnbuckles, fittings, etc. And the quote for the lifelines was
almost $1000 dollars for parts and labor. The labor cost? $475, for
lifelines? Am I missing something? On my last boat, I would take the life
lines off and bring them home. Just wire with gate fittings, turnbuckles,
that sort of thing. I don't want to say the name of the rigger . . that is
unfair. But this whole quote seems out of wack. What is your experience
when having the standing rigging replace on your boat? Did you take the
mast down? What about lifelines? Thanks,
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post #2 of 12 Old 11-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper Windvane View Post
A sailboat I am itching to see .. the standing rigging is very old,
maybe even original. The owner asked a rigging outfit to give a
quote to re rig. New Standing rigging and new lifelines. I looked
at the quote, and part of the quote goes into the removal of the
mast. And at the completion of the rigging work, the mast will go
back in place. That is expensive, big bucks. Over $1000 dollars.
I got thinking ?? Why take the mast down. What is needed is new
wire, turnbuckles, fittings, etc. And the quote for the lifelines was
almost $1000 dollars for parts and labor. The labor cost? $475, for
lifelines? Am I missing something? On my last boat, I would take the life
lines off and bring them home. Just wire with gate fittings, turnbuckles,
that sort of thing. I don't want to say the name of the rigger . . that is
unfair. But this whole quote seems out of wack. What is your experience
when having the standing rigging replace on your boat? Did you take the
mast down? What about lifelines? Thanks,
The first question that comes to my mind is; Did you ask the rigger to explain the quote?
Second; What did the survey say?
Third; How big is the boat?

There are instances where it makes more sense to unstep a mast to replace the rigging.
For instance, a rigger can find himself in some trouble with an old B & R rig that has corroded spreader ends and discontinuous rigging.
There are probably a dozen reasons that I can think of where it makes sense to pull a mast.

The thousand dollar quote for lifelines is not at all out of line for a 30 -35 foot boat with gates on both sides.

You need to provide more information.

Last edited by knothead; 11-20-2009 at 07:16 PM.
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post #3 of 12 Old 11-20-2009 Thread Starter
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The lifelines quote, for the lines, and associated equipment was $400 plus,
the labor to take off the old lifelines, and I suppose make up new, and then bring back and put on boat ? Like $500 dollars.. I'd think it would be easy to take the lifelines off, bring the old lifelines to a rigging place, get new with new turnbuckles etc. and then pick up, bring back to boat and put on . what am I missing ? As for the mast ? I will wait until more respond..
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post #4 of 12 Old 11-20-2009
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How long will it take to hoist the rigger up the mast to measure or remove a shroud so a replacement one can be made? How long to lower him down again? How long to hoist him up for the next one? (You don't want to remove all the shrouds & stays at once you know...) How long to hoist him up to install them? How much does his "hanging in midair" insurance cost him per minute? How much of this does he pass through to his customer? How long does it actually take to measure out the right length of rigging wire and then cut it? I'd like to think he measures twice and cuts once, so this operation might take twice as long as one might think it should. How far is the boat from his workshop, and what's the traffic like? (How long will he spend in travel time?) Does he have a helper, to hold the other end of the measuring tape and send him up tools he needs? Multiply by 1.75 for a helper.

Adding all this up makes it seem to me like removing the mast is the cheap, quick answer, even at a boat unit a throw. For the lifelines, removing them and having them copied is obviously the way to go. For the mast's rigging, doing the same thing involves taking the mast down first. If you can have the mast removed more cheaply than the quote you're being offered by the seller, or find the rigging elsewhere at less cost, perhaps you can negotiate a cheaper price based on the seller's quotes, and tell him you'll get the work done yourself. I would want the work done by a trusted outfit - no nicopress sleeves please- and that's likely to cost a touch more. Overpayment, perhaps, or maybe cheap insurance.

Last edited by paulk; 11-20-2009 at 09:25 PM.
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post #5 of 12 Old 11-20-2009
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The rigger I used came to the boat and measured the lifelines. New, with all hardware cost $225 for a Tartan 30. When I pulled the mast I took him the standing rigging (exept the forestay, part of the furler) and he replaced it for $750. The quote was much higher if he had to do the installation on these. Time is money...
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post #6 of 12 Old 11-21-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper Windvane View Post
The lifelines quote, for the lines, and associated equipment was $400 plus,
the labor to take off the old lifelines, and I suppose make up new, and then bring back and put on boat ? Like $500 dollars.. I'd think it would be easy to take the lifelines off, bring the old lifelines to a rigging place, get new with new turnbuckles etc. and then pick up, bring back to boat and put on . what am I missing ? As for the mast ? I will wait until more respond..
Unless I missed it, you still haven't mentioned the size or make of the boat. That info would help.

Take a typical lifeline run:

Let's say we're talking about a 35' boat so figure about 30' of 3/16" vinyl coated wire at 1.00 per foot. ($30.00)
Turnbuckle forward ($36.52) to a double gate eye ($37.50)to a pelican hook ($50.00) to a single gate eye ($18.75) to another turnbuckle aft ($36.52.)

That's six swages at six dollars each for a total of $36.00.

That comes out to $245.29 for a single run. Multiply that times 4 and you get $981.16. And that's not counting a stern gate or labor to remove or replace the lines on the boat. If his hourly rate is $80.00 and it takes him an hour to remove and replace, which is optimistic, your total is now $1,061.16

So, believe me, $1,000.00 is not out necessarily of line. It can be a lot less if you have simple lifelines without gates or more if you have extra gates. Without knowing the specifics about the boat, there is no way of saying. However, as mentioned, time is money. If the rigger is quoting the job based on the assumption that he will be removing the lifelines, measuring the boat, replacing all the hardware with new stuff, fabricating and then reinstalling the new lifelines. Then I would say you're getting a deal.
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post #7 of 12 Old 11-21-2009
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Suncor makes do it yourself lifeline kits that come with 40' of wire and all the necessary fittings. They retail for $230-250 each. Assuming you have double lifelines on both sides you'd have to buy four kits at a total of $920-1000. That makes the rigger's quote look pretty attractive since it includes the installation and I assume any stern gates or special circumstances you might have.

If you're that uncomfortable with the rigger's price you could always get quotes from others.
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post #8 of 12 Old 11-21-2009
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35 foot boat, we had our mast out, upper and lower shrouds replaced (forestay and backstay had been done the previous year) and mast back in for around $1600CDN (mast in and out was $200)

Our mast had European fittings and there was some fiddling/filing required to get the Tfittings properly in the mast... that was much easier to do at ground level, plus we had a good opportunity to properly inspect everything else (wiring, lights etc)

As Paul said above, the rigger's time is valuable, and it would take a lot longer to do this with the mast up. Take the mast off, you can remove and re-install the rigging and just have the rigger come and set up the rig if you didn't feel comfortable doing it yourself.

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
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post #9 of 12 Old 11-21-2009
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Last winter I helped shorten and re-rig a Bristol 29.9 on Long Island, Bahamas (a scenic place to work on boats BTW) and working from The Rigger's Apprentice, I can tell you that you can calculate your stay lengths just by knowing your mast length, however, I can't imagine anyone crazy enough to go aloft on an unsupported mast (even one stay missing). I've heard of yards that have a permanant mast crane that only charged $50 to pull the mast (assuming the owner is removing the turnbuckles and moving the mast. Or you could do what we did and fabricate a hinge.

I imagine the cost of stepping/unstepping is somewhat dependant on what cranes are available, but keep in mind it is probably an hour long process for an experienced team of two folks so that's $80/hr x 2 x 2 (in + out) by my accounting, not counting the crane.
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Many travel lifts have jib booms nowadays that can lift a mast (up to a certain height and tide-dependant) in and out for very reasonable fees, basically as part of your lift/launch booking.

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
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