Those skeg hung rudders are a biatch to fix
the whole way they are attached is too complicated, if it fails then it is not an easy fix
have to haul the boat then wrangle it off
i like the simplicity and access of the spade
i am currently having to fix my tartan 30 skeg hung and thinking of converting to a spade mounted off the stern !

 

Have run boats with the spade rudders... Have seen them broken off at the hull line. Seen them bent over to one side. And have one wear out its hanging bearing and drop down where it was difficut to steer with.
Skeg hung rudders may be more complicated in your eyes. But when properly maintained on haulouts, I've never had one give us any troubles.
But then again it is your choice... Mine?? I'll take the skeg hung rudder every time.

 

I would suspect that from the manufactures point of view the spade is less expensive to build, makes the boat faster, both things make the boat easier to sell. Since 95% of the boats are used for coastal cruising it sounds like a slam dunk for the builder.
Just one of a hundred decisions that make a boat slower and more durable that only matters to a very small slice of the buying public.

If you are planning on spending a few years in northern latitude storms a stronger rudder sounds like a good idea.

I just finished Amazon.com: Occupation Circumnavigator. How to Finance a Lifestyle. 10 years on the Seven Seas with S/Y Jennifer (9789163304880): Lars Hassler, Katarina Smith, 70 color photos: Books

He had a brand new 50-foot Beneteau built and sailed it continuously for 10 years. He had to rebuild his rudder several times.

 

Skegs are nice for the protection they provide for the rudder from things like lobster pots. In the past forty years two boats I've been on had entanglements with lobster pots. One was heading out to the start of a Newport-Bermuda race, and our prop snagged one. The skipper (who was steering) had his eager son go over the side to clear it. The second was this past summer in Maine, in our twelvth season on our spade-ruddered J/36. We were powersailing, close to high tide, trying to make Frenchboro Long Island before it got too dark to see. The high water and current dragged the float under and we ran it over without seeing it. Thwop,thwop, thwop, (we thought the shaft might break) thunk.
Silence. No gushing water. Ooof. The prop cut it off (?!?) Who knows? Essentially, the rudder seems to be adequately protected by the keel most of the time, and having the engine running is the problem, not the spade rudder. Having a skeg in front of the rudder would make clearing any snags much simpler (stop, and the line would drop out of the way) without the possibility of getting a line caught between the rudder and the hull. If the boat comes with a skeg, it's nice insurance to have. If the boat doesn't have a skeg, being a tad more careful doesn't hurt. For the number of times it's been an issue for me, however, it's not something to worry much about.

 

If you have a spade rudder the steering under power in reverse is usually better BUT if I went offshore with one I would want a back up steering system. Too many are failing. There is a guy who makes a good living out of building replacement spades.

I have helped someone out on the Chesapeake who had a rudder jammed by a crab pot. It took several dives with the breadknife to cut away the portion jammed between the top of the rudder and the hull. It would have been almost impossible to do if there had been a sea running.

 

... The question is this: is it really a big danger having your rudder struck to the point of being disabled? What is the percentage? I have heard the stories of boats losing their rudders, but how many in the countless number of boats that are out there?

It seems like every month or two we hear another report of a lost/broken rudder, often leading to abandonment/rescue. There actually aren't all that many boats "out there" (by which I assume you mean well off-shore) at any given time, so if there was a way to measure it scientifically the percentage of failures would probably be higher than many of us would assume.

A few years ago we talked about starting a thread where folks could file reports of broken/failed rudders leading to abandonment/rescue. I guess no one ever did that. If there's an interest, I'd be happy to make it a "sticky"?

 

Thanks for confirming what I felt was the way to go.....I've always have been in the "skeg" camp, but was wondering why high-end builders were building with spade rudders, I mean it can't be a cost issue when a Morris can cost well over a million and the new Tartan 5300 tops out at 1.2M. Of course, if you are looking at the "Hunte-Bene-Linas", I could see a cost-saving issue as well as a quality issue.

 

Consider also that a spade rudder can be "balanced" allowing for easier steering. A skeg mount generally can not. This is usually only a problem while reversing, or sliding down a wave backwards.

The skeg mount should be made with the attaching point (hinge-gudgeon) weak enough so that the hinge will break before the skeg. With the hinge broken and the rudder post bent you can still float and probably steer. With the skeg broken off you may have a big hole in the boat. A rudder post should also bend before it breaks the boat. This is an engineering problem for the designer!

 

Another thing... there are skegs and then there are skegs.

Some are bolted/added to the hull essentially after-the-fact and while they ostensibly protect the leading edge of the blade, the skegs themselves are not particularly robust and may themselves break if struck. Now you've suddenly got a "spade" rudder with a loose chunk slamming about it's leading edge.

In other cases where the skeg is molded in and substantial in area, this is obviously less of a structural issue - but in many cases the skeg is not full depth to accommodate a balancing tab to avoid heavy helm forces.. And that can be a handy slot for a lobster trap line unless properly executed.

But in the end, for me, and I suspect for most of the coastal sailors around, the added maneuverability, esp in reverse, is what tips the scale in favour of the spade.

 

I know that in the Tartan 37, the skeg is bolted on and is engineered to sheer off along with the bottom half of the rudder incase of severe impact, leaving the top half of the rudder to steer with. I have heard of one T-37 experiencing this scenario and returned safely to port with the top portion intact.

 

An advantage of (true, structural) skeg-hung rudders is the way they separate the steering function of the rudder from its support armature. If your shaft breaks (and quite a number of hollow or CF shafts HAVE broken), the skeg keeps the rudder blade attached to the boat. You can affix ropes to the blade and steer w/ winches, if you have to. And if you ground hard, the skeg takes the beating rather than the steering tube, so maybe you'll still be able to turn the rudder. And maybe your boat won't sink because the internal steering tube fractured from the impact.

A spade rudder relies on a single component to both support and turn the rudder. If it fails, you are hosed. OTOH, spades provide much better lift; they can be thinner and smaller (less drag) and yet turn the boat more nimbly. They cavitate less in messy conditions. And by balancing the blade (moving the pivot point aft of the leading edge), they require far less effort to turn: easier on the helmsman/tiller/steering linkages.

On a performance boat, a spade is great. For displacement hulls, I think I'd like the redundancy of a skeg.

 

This was my response to an earlier discussion where a fellow wanted to convert a boat from a post hung to a skeg hung rudder that discusses some of points under discussion,

Changing a boat from a post hung to a skeg hung rudder has been done in the past. I once had a commission to design a modification to a foul- handling ketch with a metal sharpie or powerboat style counterbalanced rudder. This rudder was converted to a stern post- mounted outboard rudder with a partial skeg. The project was made easier by a number of things; first of all going to an outboard rudder with tiller simplified much of the process. We didn't need to build a larger rudderpost tube or add internal floor frames. Secondly the boat was a double ender allowing us to add an oak stern post that stabilized the skeg. Lastly the propeller was fully supported with a short skeg. We added a strut and lengthened the propeller shaft.
<O</O
This approach would not work on a boat with a reverse transom. To do this on a boat with a reverse transom you will need to do an awful of work. You would need to build a new rudder with a larger diameter post. In one of the BB's, I had run some numbers on the loads on counterbalanced spade vs. a non- counterbalanced skeg hung the torsion loads (in reverse) on the non-counterbalanced required a bigger rudder post than the spade rudder. You would need to find a way to solidly attach the skeg and distribute to loads into the boat. You would probably want to pass a vertical tube through the bottom to the underside of the deck and then build a fore and aft knee and athwartships floor frame. The skeg would be constructed around this post and glassed into the hull. I would not ballast the skeg in any way as will alter trim.
<O</O
As far as whether this is a good idea or not, I would say it is not a good idea in any shape of form. To begin with the skeg will alter the balance and handling of the boat. In calculating the balance of a spade rudder the rudder does not figure in, only the canoe body and keel are used. But a skeg becomes a part of the lateral resistance. This would move the center of lateral resistance aft probably give you some lee helm. That is not a good idea from a safety standpoint. When you get hit with a puff of wind you want the boat to try to head up rather than head off toward the knock down.
<O</O
More significant to this discussion is the question, "why would you want to do this? I have been sailing now for over 35 years. This whole business of an inherent advantage of a skeg or long keel over a post-hung spade is hogwash in the real world. Each have some advantage but properly engineered a spade rudder is handier in almost all counts. I have owned or had use of all three types of keel and rudder. I have found that skeg hung rudders have all of the disadvantages of both with few of the advantages of the spade. I have rarely caught a line in a prop or rudder but the worst case of that was a line that was caught in a long keel cutter.
<O</O
As I have pointed out, the biggest loads on the rudder occur in backing a boat and while skeg hung rudders would logically seem stronger than a spade this is not always the case. To begin with the gudgeons and pintles on many production boats are such that the pin is a single sheer hinge rather than a double sheer hinge to facilitate removal of the rudder. A double sheer hinge is monumentally stronger. It gets worse if there is enough vertical play and the rudder can be driven upward enough to put the pin in bending. The whole strength of the skeg hung rudder is dependent on these hinges.
<O</O
But beyond the simple mechanics of the hinges, the skeg itself is very difficult to build well. The skeg is one of those chicken and egg things. Skegs were originally molded as a part of the hull but fear that a damaged skeg could sink a boat led to some boats being built with a skeg built as a separate unit and glassed on. That didn't last long. But the problem with the skeg molded as apart of the hull is that it is very hard to build. Remember you are trying to get a fully saturated glass resin matrix 3 or 4 feet down from the canoe body in a space too small for a man to stand in or other wise reach easily. I have helped out on a boat that had the lower pintle pull loose from the skeg. What we found was that the pintle casting was through-bolted through essentially dry glass with a small pond of resin at the bottom. There was a lot of dry glass and a lot of resin but no GFR to speak of.
<O</O
The other problem is at the joint between the skeg and the hull. Typically, today the skin of the skeg turns sharply into the bottom of the counter. There is often a lot of layers of glass across the top of the skeg and the reinforcing around the rudder post, but even on some very well built boats there often isn't any real structure to distribute the large moment at the top of the skeg. You would expect to see ring frames or floor timbers. Often there is only thick glass and that thick glass is flexing constantly. Fiberglass is very prone to fatigue and this is the perfect condition for fatigue, a stiff object pushing up and down perpendicular to the hull surface.
<O</O
Does this make a Spade hung rudder any better? No, but it can be engineered better than many a skeg hung rudder is actually constructed. I personally like counterbalanced post hung rudders with their lighter steering loads and greater efficiency. I know the old canard about catching pot warps and the fear that they will bend or be damaged, but for the kind of onshore sailing that I do I like them better.
<O</O
Lastly to better bearings and seals: Harken makes a great series of rudderpost bearings. They are designed for anything from a 30 or so footer on up to very bid boats. At least some of the Whitbread boats used the Harken bearings on their massively loaded post-hung spade rudders. The seal issue is one that relates more to the design of the steering system. If you insist on a wheel with the quadrant below decks or worse yet below the water line, then there isn't must to help you. But if like me you prefer a tiller (I heard that groan) then it is easy to install a watertight tube between the deck and the top of the rudder post tube. On my Kirby I had a large diameter clear plastic hose inside the hose I had a couple snap ties which were enough to temporarily support the rudder if the rudder head connection failed.

By the way, who ever said that a post hung rudder was cheaper was mistaken. The torque and moment resisting rudder posts on a post hung rudder are far more expensive to build than a strut and its gudgeons and pindles.

<O</O
Respectfully,
Jeff

 

...By the way, who ever said that a post hung rudder was cheaper was mistaken. The torque and moment resisting rudder posts on a post hung rudder are far more expensive to build than a strut and its gudgeons and pindles.

That is generally true of transom hung rudders -- whether they trail behind a skeg, long keel, or neither -- that pivot on pintles and gudgeons.

But many modern "skeg-hung" rudders are actually self-supporting post-hung rudders with the added protection (and expense) of a skeg.

 

Consider also that a spade rudder can be "balanced" allowing for easier steering. A skeg mount generally can not....

There is a general misperception that skeg hung rudders cannot be balanced or semi-balanced. I've even heard some designers assert this, which is puzzling since examples to the contrary can be found in most yards.

Here's an example, a Morris 32/34 by Chuck Paine. Note the angled rudder stock:

 

Here's what little I know about spade rudder/bolton fin keel boats, other than I don't like them: The last time Paloma was at Southern Yachts for a bottom job, well over 1/2 of all the boats on the hard were spade rudder/fin keel beauties in for bent rudder repairs (the largest brand representation was big Benateaus) and one lone 30-footer was there for major separation of the hull/keel joint.

 

In 2007, I raced a Nordic 44 (Bob Perry design) to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

<ST1Hawaii</ST1</st1:State>. The boat, a "racer-cruiser" had a skeg hung rudder. Pintle and gudgeon at the bottom. A bearing at the top of the rudder tube (below the quadrant) and an upper bearing above the quadrant whose bracket was through bolted at the transom and cockpit coaming. Boat was hauled and thoroughly inspected prior to the race. We were able to spinnaker reach starting on the second day with the reaching strut. This, plus the quartering seas gave us a lot of weather helm and consequentially, a lot of pressure on the rudder. Once we began to surf regularly, we had a fair amount of pressure on the rudder from the following seas. Around about the fourth day, the carriage bolts for the upper bearing bracket were chewing through and enlarging their holes giving the rudder shaft a lot of movement. The rudder shaft effectively pivoting on the middle bearing and the skeg flexing along with the rudder movement. We were able to effect a repair by patching a G-10 plate to the coaming and transom, using that as a new backing plate.

<O</OI tell the above anecdote merely to caution everyone that no rudder system is completely bullet proof. The Perry designed 44 is generally thought of as a "go anywhere" boat and it was a pleasure to sail it on this two thousand mile race. The skeg helped a lot and the boat tracked like it was on rails. The couple of times I found myself "sideways" on a wave, I was able to horse the helm around and get the boat pointing "downhill" again. The big downside of the skeg is the boat is a little slow in the tacks and isn't very nimble when maneuvering in traffic.

 

A good resource on the basics of how rudders work and in what ways they differ from each other.
Rudder: Rugludallur

As far as the vulnerability issue, it seems like most obstacles would encounter the keel (that huge thing that hangs way down in the water AHEAD of the rudder, except for the times when going backwards, when they are almost all vulnerable) long before the rudder was in jeopardy. Not saying it couldn't happen, but seems like a longer shot than catching a log fish with a prop. (which I have done)

I have driven both and prefer a spade for handling (so long as I don't get the darn thing stuck backwards.... )

 

Hello from Greece,
I am the happy owner of a first 35 from 1985.I thought of cutting the skeg and replace the rudder with a blade (spade) of a mum 36. I race my boat very often and I guess I would improve the speed and manouverability of the boat as an all moving surface is far better than the fin and rudder configuration. Using some simple cad programms as the compufoil or profili for example proved that the absence only from the hinge line and the cavity between the skeg and rudder improves the water flow 40% on a straight course and the first signs of flow delamination at 20 degrees with a speed of 5,5 kts. Not mentioning sailing on a spinnaker downwind. All the above make an easier steering and a faster boat.Anybody with a practical experience?

Safe winds in your sails,

 

Personally i would go one further, and say outboard or transom hung rudder.
A really easy way to eliminate lots of problems, as well as to make selfsteering really simple.
Just last summer i saw two boats ( one hunter, one catalina) with F-ed up spade rudders.
The catalina builders apparently "forgot" to weld up the stainless flange, It held up for several years only being tacked together. Amazing.
the hunter simply bent the thing, rendering it unusable.
Luckily both boats were close to a haulout and were able to have the problem fixed.
both are very poorly built arrangments...

 

Having a spade rudder knocked off by hitting something or tangling with nets etc. is probably a reason for one being nervous of it but I have a different reason for not wanting one.

To test this reason is (for me) simple. Take a broom, hold it in one hand at the very end of the handle and, keeping the handle horizontal, see how long you can hold it. I suspect this test will not take long.

Now hold it in one hand at the very end of the handle and hold it in the middle of the handle with the other hand and, keeping the handle horizontal, see how long you can hold it. You will almost certainly get bored before you get tired.

Now I know there are a lot of engineering formulea that will be postulated by the experts but for me, none of them surpass this simple test. A spade rudder places a vastly greater load on hulls, bearings etc. and simply cannot be as strong (weight for weight, size for size) as a skeg-hung rudder. At least, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Having a spade rudder knocked off by hitting something or tangling with nets etc. is probably a reason for one being nervous of it but I have a different reason for not wanting one.

To test this reason is (for me) simple. Take a broom, ....

Now I know there are a lot of engineering formulea that will be postulated by the experts but for me, none of them surpass this simple test. A spade rudder places a vastly greater load on hulls, bearings etc. and simply cannot be as strong (weight for weight, size for size) as a skeg-hung rudder. At least, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

You have to go with what gives you the most peace of mind....

So.... I'm assuming then that in keeping with that philosophy you only fly on aircraft that still have wing struts???

 

Omatako,
Have you ever seen a skeg hung front fork on a bicycle?
It's all about design, engineering and manufacture. When done correctly either design works. And remember you can break anything, even a steel ball.
John

 

So then the spade rudders that break are just poorly designed/engineered/made. I get it now. Thanks

Like I said, there will be a lot of formulea from the experts that . . . . . .

Good luck with your spade rudders.

 

Bob Perry wrote a great article about how the spade rudder is superior in every way to the skeg-hung rudder. I wish I could find it, but the funniest thing was that for a fiberglass boat it is likely the rudder holding the skeg on, not vice versa.
Anyway at one time pilots were not about to fly an airplane without a lot of rigging to support the wings. I have flown a traditional airplane with flying wires between the wings that was as strong as a solid lump of steel and modern airplanes that manage without all the traditional bracing due to modern engineeing and materials too.

 

One possible solution to the argument of spades, skegs, wires and struts: full keel, transom hung rudder, unstayed masts. Nothing to worry about, provided you don't want to race.

 

Have a look at Beth and Evans website. They argue the superiority of spade rudder for a long distance cruising yacht much more elegantly than I could: see point number# 50

Boats.

 

After sailing up and down the east coast for several thousand miles, in what seemed like one continuous crab and lobster pot field; I wouldn't try it in a boat with a spade rudder and exposed prop and shaft. Give me a full keel with the prop enclosed in a cut out.

Calls for help from boats caught in pots and nets were a daily occurrence, it seemed. I'll take the slower boat, every time if it means I don't have to worry about catching my rudder or prop on something, or knocking the rudder off in a minor grounding or collision.

In my Cheoy Lee 31, I simply sailed right through the crab and lobster pot fields without ever catching on anything. Motoring down the Tenn-Tom; I ran over several logs and trees with no damage to the rudder or prop, during flood conditions.

It just makes good sense to have a protected rudder and prop for long term cruising.

 

After sailing up and down the east coast for several thousand miles, in what seemed like one continuous crab and lobster pot field; I wouldn't try it in a boat with a spade rudder and exposed prop and shaft. Give me a full keel with the prop enclosed in a cut out.

Calls for help from boats caught in pots and nets were a daily occurrence, it seemed. I'll take the slower boat, every time if it means I don't have to worry about catching my rudder or prop on something, or knocking the rudder off in a minor grounding or collision.

In my Cheoy Lee 31, I simply sailed right through the crab and lobster pot fields without ever catching on anything. Motoring down the Tenn-Tom; I ran over several logs and trees with no damage to the rudder or prop, during flood conditions.

It just makes good sense to have a protected rudder and prop for long term cruising.

A prop in an aperture is certainly no guarantee of anything... Last time I caught a pot warp, it was on a Cape George cutter while running thru the Yacht Channel in Florida Bay, a minefield of crab pots...

Then, there was this recent experience of a fellow Sailnetter:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/147538-stern-tube-repair-bristol-29-9-a.html

In all my travels up and down the East coast on boats with spade rudders, including a fair amount of sailing in New England, the Chesapeake, and the Florida Keys, I can only recall 2 instances of snagging a line... Both times, problem easily solved with either a boathook, or a hook knife...

 

Over the course of owning 5 boats I've had 2 spades, 2 full keels, and 1 skeg hung rudder.

The spade rudders both backed better with less walk, easier to dock. The full keels and skeg boats took less attention under sail, with proper sail balance you could walk away from the wheel for many minutes at a time or longer with the full keel boats. With less wetted area I'm sure the spades had better performance, but of course owning one boat at a time I never had a race of one against the other If performance is paramount, you cannot do better than a spade and a deep draft high aspect keel IMHO.

I've had 2 friends loose spades. One in an inshore situation with a very high end daysailer with a spade and a carbon shaft. One half way to Tortola on a 54 ft boat with a large solid stainless shaft. Both sheered at the point where the rudder shaft leaves the boat. And these were both built by high reputation custom builders.

Statistically, I've wrapped more pots in Maine on the spade rudder boats than boats with props in apertures. One summer I needed divers 3 times to unwrap melted poly birds nests around shafts on a spade boat, in 6 years with a skeg hung I've wrapped only once, and was able to clear it with a hook knife. Line cutters can change this equation greatly.

I wouldn't eliminate a boat from consideration with either configuration. Like everything in sailing, it's a tradeoff.