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post #21 of 91 Old 12-06-2009
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And all of this because one guy asked what books he can use during the USCG exam.

You can only apply for a towing endorsement if you have a years time on tugs.

Also note: The USCG are coming out with more Regs of education needed before you can apply for a license... So if you can, apply for one now and acquire one before those regs go into effect.

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post #22 of 91 Old 12-06-2009
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Bosan, They are referring to "Assistance Towing Endorsement" Like you would use to work for sea tow or tow boat us.

10.482 Assistance towing.
(a) This section contains the requirements
to qualify for an endorsement
authorizing an applicant to engage in
assistance towing. The endorsement
applies to all licenses except those for
master and mate (pilot) of towing vessels
and those for master or mate authorizing
service on inspected vessels
over 200 gross tons. Holders of any of
these licenses may engage in assistance
towing within the scope of the licenses
and without the endorsement.
(b) An applicant for an assistance
towing endorsement shall pass a written
examination demonstrating his or
her knowledge of assistance towing
safety, equipment, and procedures.
(c) An assistance towing endorsement
on a license as master, mate, or operator
authorizes the holder to engage in
assistance towing on any vessel within
the scope of the license.
(d) The period of validity of the endorsement
is the same as the license on
which it is endorsed, and it may be renewed
with the license.


[CGD 87
017, 53 FR 18562, May 24, 1988, as
amended by USCG

19996224, 64 FR 63235,
Nov. 19, 1999]
10.491 Licenses for service



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post #23 of 91 Old 12-06-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
....
Except, International vessels under 12 meters do not display a steaming cone. 12 meters and under Inland has the option.
This is sorta silly, but for the benefit of other sailors, we ought to be able to answer a simple regulatory question.

I went back and read Rule 25 twice. and I see no size exception in the International Rule 25. That's how I've always remembered it, perhaps I just can't see it. The International Rule is only one sentence long...where the Inland Rule is two sentences, one being an exception for size.

If you read here, FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules the limitation of the size exception to inland is clear.
"
Sailing Vessels Under Power

During the day, vessels under sail also being propelled by machinery, must exhibit forward, where best seen, a conical shape with the apex pointing down (See Figure 9). Vessels less than 12 meters are not required to exhibit the dayshape in inland waters. "



Certified...in several regards...

Last edited by sailingfool; 12-07-2009 at 07:59 AM.
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post #24 of 91 Old 12-07-2009
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You are not going to let this go are you? Your are using a second hand source that has a 1999 copyright. Boat safety . com. You must have searched along time to find a out of date and inaccurate reference thats supports your misinformation.


Again the link, from the horse's mouth. pages 78 and 79. It is the USCG Navigational rules publication and the one I was quoting from and the one I learned from to get my Masters of Oceans and the one that required to be on board if you are a commercial vessel over 60 meters. But I am sure your sources have more creditably.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/mwv_f...s/navrules.pdf


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Last edited by bubb2; 12-07-2009 at 08:38 AM.
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post #25 of 91 Old 12-07-2009
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One more thing fool. IF you click on the Red Coast Guard banner of your reference, you will find out that the page you are using to support your claims no longer exits in the federal data base.

Here's your link again and you can try it for yourself.
FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules


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post #26 of 91 Old 12-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
One more thing fool. IF you click on the Red Coast Guard banner of your reference, you will find out that the page you are using to support your claims no longer exits in the federal data base.

Here's your link again and you can try it for yourself.
FedReq - Pages 22-28 - Equipment Requirements/Navigation Rules
All I can think is you are so irritated that you arn't reading your own references.

When I click thru on your link above, I get the text below, if you think that text states a length exception for international waters, good luck, up is down, black is white, and I give up:
"
Sailing Vessels Under Power
During the day, vessels under sail also being propelled by machinery, must exhibit forward, where best seen, a conical shape with the apex pointing down (See Figure 9). Vessels less than 12 meters are not required to exhibit the dayshape in inland waters. "

Certified...in several regards...

Last edited by sailingfool; 12-07-2009 at 10:27 AM.
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post #27 of 91 Old 12-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
Hmmm...thanks for the link, this is what I see on Page 78-79:

"

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.

{Image}
Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery. Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than
12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape.



—INLAND—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downward. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. "

I'd suggest that you are mis-reading the text if you believe that the exception comment in the IMAGE description is intended to apply to International...if it did, they would have just written it that way.

Understanding these exceptions are what makes the test a challenge. That there might be a difference of opinion as to what the words mean, would indicate the fundamental problem that the Rules are not very well written.
After reading it - I can see how it can be interpreted differently.

It seems that the following sentence - which appears to be a caption under the image in the "INTERNATIONAL— Lights and Shapes" section - is the sticky wicket:

"Vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery. Same for Inland except that a vessel of less than
12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape."


The language here, in the caption under the image, SEEMS to state that the exception applies to Inland - not to International. Yet, they put the sentence (arguably) in the International section. So you could read it both ways.

Strange. The government is usually so very clear about stuff.


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-07-2009 at 11:04 AM.
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post #28 of 91 Old 12-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
All I can think is you are so irritated that you arn't reading your own references.
Fool, I am not irritated at all. But, I know this stuff inside and out and use to teach it. What causes me concern is there are others reading these posts and misinformation is being quoted as fact. Steaming cones are not a big deal, if it was whistle signals that would be a whole different thing.

one more time: The same as, refers to the size, orientation, and placement of the dayshape

except that a vessel of less than
12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape., Refers to the
display of the dayshape.(not required means you don't)

Rule 25 is the sailboat Exception to rule 24. When reading rule 25 you must keep in mind it is referring to rule 24. That is the reason for the wording The same as, and except. If you read rule 25 on its own you would not know what size of shape the Coast Guard calls for. You have to go to rule 20 to find that out.


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Last edited by bubb2; 12-07-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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If you are to remove the image and caption, here is how the rules read by themselves:

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.

—INLAND—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downward. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

So, from a "legal document" standpoint, the question is, does the image caption "count" as legal language in the rules? I don't think it would in most cases. But I'm not sure here.

This is actually a pretty interesting issue.


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Smack I am no lawyer it might. Inland if you want to rig a steaming cone and are under 12 meters (40 feet) you can do so and no one is going to stop you.

It the International part of the rule that does not have the wording, but may do so, that is causing the confusion for some.


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