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How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

84K views 391 replies 123 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 · (Edited)
In looking through various forums, there always seems to be a tendency toward and/or against "fear mongering". That is, there is the tendency to focus on disastrous stories, then leverage off those for the sake of the safety debate. Great examples of this are COB stories (which I've been really digging into lately). Then, there's the other end where it's about the fact that you can die stepping off the curb in front of a speeding meteor while getting hit by a lightning...so why worry about it?

The bottom line is that one can never "lose" the safety argument. Safety always wins. So I'm definitely not arguing AGAINST safety.

But, the question I have is this: when considering the type of sailing 99% of the people out there do, do the stats support a "fear mongering" approach to safety? Isn't this sport, all in all, really pretty safe in terms of hours put in vs. fatalities (compared to sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, skiing, etc.)?

ADDENDUM: I'M ADDING MY POST FROM PAGE 3 WHICH BREAKS DOWN SOME OF THE USCG REPORT DATA AND THROWS IN SOME IRONY:

Oh man, I just looked through the numbers in the USCG report provided by k1vsk - and this is going to raise some hackles. First the numbers...then what "seem" to be the take-aways (up for discussion of course):

First, the Executive Summary
• In 2008, the Coast Guard counted 4789 accidents that involved 709 deaths, 3331 injuries and approximately $54 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating accidents.
• Over two-thirds of all fatal boating accident victims drowned, and of those, ninety (90) percent were not wearing a life jacket.
• Only ten percent of deaths occurred on boats where the operator had received boating safety instruction.
• Seven out of every ten boaters who drowned were using boats less than 21 feet in length.
• Careless/reckless operation, operator inattention, no proper lookout, operator inexperience and passenger/skier behavior rank as the top five primary contributing factors in accidents.
• Alcohol use is the leading contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; it was listed as the leading factor in 17% of the deaths.
• Eleven children under age thirteen lost their lives while boating in 2008. 63% of the children who died in 2008 died from drowning.
• The most common types of vessels involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (43%), personal watercraft (23%), and cabin motorboats (15%).
Now for some crunching - which reveals some very interesting stats:

Of the 709 deaths, here are the top 5 vessel types, making up 614 of that total (leaving 95 deaths for other vessel types):
• Open Motorboat
• Personal Watercraft
• Cabin Motorboat
• Canoe/Kayak
• Rowboat
(note sailboats don't make the cut, but rowboats and canoes do!)
So if you drill down on that a bit, look at the overall accident numbers for boat types:

Number of vessles in accidents per type:
PWC: 1459
Motorboats (open and cabin): 2399
Aux. Sail: 258 (a bit worse than canoes) + 58 for other sail
Pretty small number for sailboats - considering how many total are out on the water crusing, racing, etc. Now what about the deaths involved with these accident figures - and the causes?

Deaths by vessel type:
All sail (25 - 50%+ by drowning)
So out of 709 total deaths, 25 of those happened on sailboats (10% of total sailing accidents involved a fatality). And 40% or so of these deaths were by means other than drowning (the thing we all associate as the most likely threat to our lives) - knocking that number down to 15.

So what are the causes in these deaths?

Primary Contributing Factors of Deaths (in order of impact):
Booze
Hazardous Waters
Passenger/Skier Behavior
Weather
Inexperience/Inattention
Speed
Now, initially I was going to say that because we can't really get actual "speed" out of our boats, that we were off the hook on that. But, other numbers showed that most fatalities happen at low speed! Interesting.

Now let's look at the bodies of water and conditions that are most likely to lead to these fatalities (this is where it starts getting ironic - and I love irony):

Weather & Water Conditions leading to total boating deaths:
Type of Body of Water: Sheltered waters (653), Ocean/Gulf (40), Great Lakes (15)
Water Conditions: Calm (335), Choppy (155), Rough (77), Very Rough (32)
Wind Conditions: Light (298), Moderate (153), Strong (87), Storm (over 25 mph) (23)
Oh lordy, lordy...

And what about the type of vessel most likely to kill you?

Vessel Info:
Less than 16' (292), 16' to 26' (281), 26'-40' (59)
And finally, let's look at the operators in these fatalities:

Operator's Experience (in boat related deaths):
None (7), Under 10h (36), 10h-100h (78), 101h-500h (155), Over 500h (64)

Education of Operator:
Informal (16), State Course (28), US Power Squadroms (4), USCG Aux (6), None (277)
So, taking these statistics into account, am I correct in surmising that,

[IRONY ALERT] statistically speaking, any sailor's best chance at survival is to get 10 or so hours of some informal training on how to sail, take a 40' vessel into the open ocean in rough to very rough conditions, wear a pfd, don't drink, stay on the boat (regardless of make or year), sail REALLY fast, and, in all probability, you'll be just fine?

It seems the most dangerous sailing out there is sailing a small boat on a sheltered body of water in calm conditions. Could that be right?

Surely that's not it.
[/IRONY ALERT]

I just want to make it known what we lake sailors have now been vindicated. We are truly the gnarliest sailors around. Those chumps that make fun of our "duck ponds" just don't have the numbers to back them up.

Thoughts?
 
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#304 ·
We've had a few black bear close encounters while cruising (we'd see many while canoe tripping). This first one was when we were anchored close to shore. Hard to tell, but this bear is tearing apart a log looking for grubs I assume. It was perhaps 50 feet away from our boat's stern as we swung towards shore. Gave us a good show, and didn't even notice us. But it got me thinking that despite our boat's relatively high freeboard, that it would probably be able to climb up if it wanted to.



We came across this other bear as it was swimming across a fairly wide bay. It was about a 1/2 mile off shore at this point, and was headed to the other side another 1/2 mile.

 
#308 · (Edited)
My first trip to the North was a real eye opener. I was working as a seasonal boat captain right after college and was laid off for the winter. Somehow I managed to luck out getting a one off job delivering a 1 ton truck from Toronto to around Sandy Lake via the winter/ice road.

The plan was for me to meet up with a local guide a few hours north of Dryden who was taking up a 5 ton truck with a cherry picker. We would have to stop along the road every so often to fix some issue with the vehicles or to have a meal. I noticed the other guy never got out of his vehicle with out his rifle. If he got out to take a leak 5' from his truck with the door open, he took his rifle with him.

After a while, I got curious and asked him about it, and it turned out that he was equally shocked by my habit of getting out of the truck without one. He attributed my lack of common sense to me being from Toronto- fair enough.

Ever since then, I've observed that you don't see very many parties north of a certain latitude where somebody in the party isn't armed.

I wasn't really thinking about being boarded by wildlife, I was more thinking about going ashore for hikes and picnics, but I suppose it's possible.

I watched a good YouTube video about a couple who had trailered their trailer sailor up to Goose Bay, and then took the coastal freighter up to Nain. They then sailed from Nain, over 200 miles up through the Labrador Sea to the Torngat Mountains and back. It was something like a 6 week cruise.

Their boat was pretty small and pretty vulnerable looking. They beached it every night to camp. I'm not sure what kind of boat it was, it looked a little bit like a Precision 18 (correction, it was a Sunfish Daysailer 17), but I don't think that's what it was.

For that kind of cruising wild life would definitely make me nervous.
 
#309 ·
...The plan was for me to meet up with a local guide a few hours north of Dryden who was taking up a 5 ton truck with a cherry picker. We would have to stop along the road every so often to fix some issue with the vehicles or to have a meal. I noticed the other guy never got out of his vehicle with out his rifle. If he got out to take a leak 5' from his truck with the door open, he took his rifle with him.

After a while, I got curious and asked him about it, and it turned out that he was equally shocked by my habit of getting out of the truck without one. He attributed my lack of common sense to me being from Toronto- fair enough.

Ever since then, I've observed that you don't see very many parties north of a certain latitude where somebody in the party isn't armed.
Having lived in northern Ontario for 17 years, I'd say there is little to fear from black bears. Polar bears only inhabit the northern coasts of Hudson Bay of Ontario, and they are few. Ontario doesn't have grizzlies/brown bears.

I've never been to Sandy Lake, but I have canoed through major sections of northern Ontario, including paddling to Moosonee/Moose Factory on the coast of Hudson Bay. I've never carried a gun to deal with wildlife, and have never needed one despite numerous close encounters. Black bears don't typically see humans as prey. Most attacks are due to us doing something stupid or unlucky.

Polar bears, and to a somewhat lesser extent gizzlies/brown bears, are different. They will see humans as lunch.
 
#311 · (Edited)
I worked in the Office of Boating Safety for over 20 years. Those are the people who compile those statistics. They are interesting statistics, But other than the number of fatalities dropping dramatically since they began keeping them in the early 70's, nothing much has changed as far as type of boats involved, except the addition of Personal water craft in the 90's. We used to say that if you could eliminate canoes/kayaks and jon boats, you could reduce the fatalities by 25%. But that's not likely to happen. And you need to look beyond the stats to see what has happened. In my first years in boating safety I was tasked with reviewing boating accidents, and determining causes and remedies. I reviewed hundreds of accidents over a three year period. Here a some conclusions.

Sailboats have always been a small number of fatalities and accidents. Why? lots of reasons. As mentioned, speed is one. Other than really high tech Americas Cup type boats, sailboats just don't go very fast. Speed kills. Lower the speed and you lower the number of fatalities. But another factor is simply most of us (I include myself, because I started sailing when I was about 12) took some sort of class or training and safety was stressed. Another is that in most youth sailing programs wearing a lifejacket is required and it becomes a lifelong habit. Plus we learn how to get ourselves out of things like a capsize.

Another factor here is simply that most people who get into sailing as an adult realize they need some training. Sailboats are not turn key boats. There are literally thousands of people who buy a powerboat and all they ask is "how do I start they engine?" In many states now there is a boating course or exam requirement, and that is good, but there is still no requirement to actually get hands on training on how to operate a powerboat.

Drinking. It is much more common for powerboats to operated by someone under the influence, than sailboats. why? the three B's, Boats Booze, babes (sorry ladies) For some reason powerboats with big engines are associated with those three. Just go look at a forum like PerformanceBoats.com. Not so with sailboats (yes we keep the boats and babes part, LOL) but most sailors know that the booze comes after the sail, not during or before. (By the way, these are my own opinions, not those of the Coast Guard)

Also, there are many safety standards for powerboats,such as safe horsepower, safe loading, flotation, and the list goes on. But there are practically none for sailboats. Why is that? Because, as I said, sailboats are simply not involved much in serious accidents. A collision in a sailboat rarely involves more than minor damage ad rarely involves injuries or death. Federal requirements for boats are based on demonstrated need, and the need for that in sailboats simply cannot be demonstrated.

So Sailing is relatively safe, and most of the serious accidents are because the operator put themselves in a dangerous situation such as sailing into massive storms, or attempting something they do not have the experience or training to tackle. Oddly enough, if you look at the Coast Guard statistics on rescues at sea where a person or persons were taken off of a sailboat because of the weather or high seas, the boat almost always survives just fine and is found later and returned to their owner.

So keep on sailing. Of the many boating activities it is by far one of the safest.
 
#313 ·
Been gone from here for awhile off cruising. See things much the same.
We carry no firearms. Reality is scenarios I've heard about from fellow cruisers are:
Quiet boarding while you're asleep- petty thief (dinghy etc.) or sudden assault by multiple armed vermin. If you think a hand gun would be of any benefit you are fooling yourself. Being caught with an Uzi or the like in the countries we've seen means a life behind bars. Even then unless you are sleeping with it under your pillow it's meaningless. Things move too fast.
Catastrophes are usually a cascade of difficulties from little things. Currently in harbor fixing waterpump to genset. It goes on when there's no wind/sun to make water. Although we carry multiple flats of "survival" water it the kind of thing that really affects your life. Just like no food unless the propane stove works. Hence we carry survival food needing no heat or refrigeration.
We are replacing the wire between ssb tuner and insulated backstay. Small thing but on passage it's needed to get Chris Parker although satphone is our backup.
We are getting rid of splitter to improve AIS signal.
All little things but the kind of things that could cascade into big troubles. There's a stressor that doesn't go away " what did I forget? What didn't I do"?
 
#314 ·
Interesting thread. When discussing the topic "fear" it is about one persons fear vs another persons bliss. We encounter fear as a natural protection instinct when we are uncomfortable with our surroundings. Fear can be debilitating and prevent one from acting promptly and properly to adjust to surroundings to keep them safe. Some say the only thing to fear is fear itself. A small amount of fear though can keep you alert and respectful of natures power in the ocean. I have had my knees shake when hiking on a cliff ledge to the point i had to crawl back....but when offshore one night I was the one who went on the foredeck to fix the roller furler, it had to be done and fear played no part but to keep me alert as waves pushed me into the lifelines. I am recalling my first offshore trip from PNW to Hawaii. We did all the usual safety precautions but I had one crew that insisted that the longer we stayed at sea the more the risk. This meant that he wanted to pound the boat to windward when we encountered a low pressure system just to keep us on the rum line. I disagreed, that it was safer to steer away and head off the wind for a day or two away from rough conditions until more favorable wind/waves would back us to our direction. Pounding to windward is hard on the boat and fatiguing to the crew and when people are tired is when accidents happen. The shock loading on the mast and rigging and keel is tremendous when the boat crashes and falls down off waves etc. Its no wonder racing boats are dismasted. but that happens to cruising boats for another reason: failing to adequately maintain standing rigging. There are times when going to windward is required, lee shore, or general prevailing winds etc. but otherwise the one thing that you can count on is change out there and going with the flow of wind/waves is always preferred and I believe safer. That may be the difference of philosophy between racers and cruisers. After 3 ocean crossings I am most concerned with collision floating objects debris, logs, docks, containers etc. and so slow down at night to minimize damage from impact and post vigilant day watches. It is when we become complacent that is dangerous. Anytime you get in the car you are depending on the other guy not to cross the center line etc.
 
#315 ·
I think someone needs to send that memo out again, because there are a whole lot of sailors out there that I don't think ever got it
I didn't say "all" . One thing you learn in the military is that there is always that 10% (sometimes more) that doesn't get the word.
 
#319 ·
Things usually go bad when I get complacent, cocky, push the envelope, take avoidable risks, or when I'm in a hurry. There always comes punishment for such behavior, sooner or later, and then we sober up, become more humble, more prudent, more respectful.
And that is not just in sailing. The whole life is like that.
 
#322 ·
I've never felt the need for a gun anywhere in Canada, Like Mike I've also paddled to Moose river also the Kootnay.
Done extensive back country camping and climbing in the Rockies which IS grizzly counry, seen plenty of them too!
With proper precautions never had a problem never even been worried. Hell in Banff we used to chase black bears out of our backyard on foot pelting them with rocks! Far more afraid of a moose!
The ONLY place I've ever really worried about my safety incedently was travelling the states and that was the people not the animals.
Only time I've EVER had a gun pointed at me was by a cop when I needed directions in San Jose California!
Canada has a huge gun culture, the deer hunt is almost a religious holiday, yet there aren't that many gun fatalities and those that happen are usually in the cities by scum bags with unregistered american handguns!
And yes we can own handguns legally, need a restricted weapons permit. There are serious rules regarding transport, storage and use, Locked box in the trunk of you car going to the range ONLY!
I myself used to own a number of guns. Coolest was a little Armalite .22 survival rifle that packed down into it's own stock No idea why my grandfater ever bought it.
 
#323 · (Edited)
#324 ·
Give it a few more years and Polar bears won't be a problem anymore, no sea ice = no bears.
Not a global warming nutcase, just an observation. Personally have other things to worry about before I die. Like paying my hydro bill in Ontario!
 
#327 ·
Geez, you cold weather, polar bear fearing, fleece and wooly wearing sailors ought to head for the tropics..The gals only wear grass skirts here, lucky I have some grass shears!
 
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#332 ·
That is probably right, calm days with a beer in hand, no PFD, trying to get as much speed out of the thing as you can, having a convo for 4 mins and realizing the guy you are talking to desapared some time ago while you paid attention to the sails. Lol. In 10 footer on the Great Lakes in a 30+ sail boat even with beer in hand, everybody is wearing a PFD, everybody is alert and the BEER is probably to calm the nerve of a poor first timer lol
 
#333 ·
Beer in hand will lose you your drivers license in Canada and give you a criminal record! No open alcohol unless your at anchor, even then there are rules as to the type of boat you can drink on, must be classed as a "home" - built in cooking facilities, sleeping arrangements and a built in head, portapotti doesn't cut it!
Personally all for this law! Alcohol is involved in 40% of boating fatalities according to US and Canadian coast guard.
I don't allow it on my boat at all, why bother inviting trouble. Don't care if others do so as long as the follow the rules.
IF you NEED to drink I don't NEED you on my boat!
 
#334 ·
Beer in hand will lose you your drivers license in Canada and give you a criminal record!
Wow. Harsh.

That is soooo no the case here. There's a party lake nearby, Lake Minnetonka, that turns into an absolute zoo on the July 4th weekend. Mostly powerboaters, of course. In 2015 they had 75 calls to 911 on that one weekend.



I'm curious how the Canadian law works. Who loses their license? The person at the helm? What if you're on auto?
 
#336 · (Edited)
Theoretically, somebody needs to self identify as the skipper, that person needs to have a Federal Boating license. My wife and I each have one, so if we were ever boarded (I was boarded once in my entire life in 1993 and that was by the USCG in Mackinac Michigan), we would point our fingers at each other and say "she's/he's driving :)

But Tanksi is absolutely right, impaired boating can be leveraged against your provincial drivers license AND criminal charges.

But, not every one follows the rules all the time.

Potahawk Piss Up, Port Dover, Ontario, Canada, been many times, it's pretty fun.

 
#337 ·
Last summer I was anchored in a bay with perhaps a hundred other boats of all types and sizes, all watching an air show. There were all sorts of water cops patrolling around, checking for infractions. We had the hook down and were out on deck with a beer, and I could see the cops making the rounds, checking all the boats. I fully expected a visit but they passed us, and other cruising boats (trawlers and sailboats), by.

I’ve never have a visit from a water cop for a booze check. In fact, I’ve only ever had two direct encounters with water cops over the last 12+ years, and one was b/c an RCMP member simply wanted to know how our windvane worked. My sense is that cruising boats are not the ones the cops worry about.

Here in Canada, if you’re not being a dyck head, and not doing anything obviously stupid, it’s unlikely you’ll ever have have to worry about being checked by the cops. Of course, the opposite is also true.

Booze is usually plentiful on our boat, but not a drop gets consumed while underway, and that includes on multi-day passages. The beer/wine only comes out once the hook is securely set or the dock lines are fastened (and there are no weather issues to deal with).
 
#339 · (Edited)
Guns and beer!! The critical safety issues we sailors all have to deal with!! LOL!!

I looked up the CG data..... 36 people died in 2008 in boats over 21 feet where alcohol was the leading factor. Its is reasonable to assume most of those were in power boats. So that's at most 17 sailboat accidents. 17 deaths where alcohol was the leading factor. Maybe...


There are 823 fatal accidents per 100,000 people in the U.S. According to NOAA there are 1,669,000 sailboats in the U.S. And yet there are only 17 or so alcohol related fatalities on sailboats.

And yet no doubt someone, probably many people, will come along and insist the government should send cops to randomly board sailboats and do breathalyzer tests - is it in the public's interest?

Cows kill 22 people a year. The public would be better served by police cow patrols. And the cows should have guns too.
 
#342 ·
Canada/US specific....

Had a couple of moto friends who were denied entry into/thru Canada because they had DUI offenses in their past...US guys.
I remember years ago when it was wide open partying for the Ehs/Canuks....and visitors.
They may've gone a tad bit over the line, but I don't live there....
 
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